[electronvolt]

> Physical attraction alone does not disregard a person's humanity or personal agency.

This is true! The thing is, most feminists I've met also believe this. When people complain about 'objectification', they are not complaining that someone might find them physically attractive at all--it's the patterns of behavior and speech which some/many men exhibit which clearly show that they are not valued beyond their physical appearance or are primarily valued for their physical appearance.

> I never said anything about forcing or denying abortions, only that a woman has the right to cede responsibility for reproduction whereas a man has none. If a woman chooses to abort or put a child up for adoption, she is well within her rights to do so. If a man suggests the same thing, he is a "deadbeat".

There are some fundamental challenges to 'perfect equality' w.r.t. reproduction. I don't think any feminist platform I'm aware of suggests that men should not be able to put forward their feelings on adoption/abortion when they are the father and in a relationship with the mother: simply that the father in those situations doesn't have the final say and should not have the final say, particularly w.r.t. abortion. Things get significantly more complex after a child is born, and I don't know many feminists who think the current situation is ideal either. (That the mother is primarily responsible for the child, or that the mother almost always gets custody in a custody battle. That isn't equality either.)

> So as long as an exaggerated body image is accompanied by power and dominance, it shouldn't place unfair expectations on impressionable viewers?

Male incidence of eating disorders is, as I recall, actually heavily underreported (partially b/c of how it manifests, partially for other reasons), but I don't know many nonradical feminists who claim that male self image issues are not a problem--simply that given our current societal norms and values, women's appearance is more heavily focused on then men's... and that is an issue perpetuated by things like Barbie. I'd strongly disagree with the original sentiment, but I also haven't met any recent feminist claiming that and don't believe it's part of any particular non-radical platform.

> The idea of sexuality as being negative is also unhealthy, for both genders.

This is the entire point of sex positive feminism. I don't think any sex positive feminists have argued that female characters shouldn't be allowed to have any sexuality--just that they are often portrayed in unrealistic ways that are designed to appeal to male fantasies. I'm not familiar with Bayonetta, but from looking at google images, at least from her exaggerated appearance, impractical clothing, etc. I'd say that she may very well qualify. (It's also just as possible for women to design unrealistic characters which appeal to male fantasies as it is for men--nobody I know has claimed that every woman is by necessity a perfect feminist.)

> Men also can and do suffer terrible experiences as the hands of women, and can be dominated by them. If a woman gets "safe spaces", so, too, should men.

No feminist I know has said "Men should not be allowed safe spaces", particularly not "Men who are survivors of abuse should not be allowed safe spaces." Every feminist woman I know would be 100% behind these getting set up by men who felt they needed them: perhaps it would be better to ask why they are not getting set up by men who need them? This is actually of personal interest to me, because I would have greatly benefited from one (as a male survivor of abuse who has been diagnosed with PTSD) had one existed in the past.

> You must have missed the part where I mentioned men also get serious threats to their person, and that there are documented cases where those threats have been acted upon.

Cases of men getting serious threats to their person is, as you said, 'unfortunate'. (I'd take a stronger stance and say it's pretty bad.) That is, however, different from the recent trend of women who have been harassed, doxxed, received rape threats, etc. for publicly expressing feminist viewpoints. If it did seem like a plausible trend existed in the harassment of men, I'd be interested.

> http://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_gender...

The statistics there don't actually prove that point... it's definitely possible that women simply commit fewer crimes, less serious crimes, or are caught less often. That being said, let us presume that men do get, on average, longer sentences for the same crime (I think this is plausible): do you know of any feminists who are claiming that this should be the case? (Most I know are generally against the current prison system and rate of incarceration in the first place, for both men and women, so I'm not sure where your argument is here anyways.)

[erics32]

> No feminist I know has said "Men should not be allowed safe spaces", particularly not "Men who are survivors of abuse should not be allowed safe spaces." Every feminist woman I know would be 100% behind these getting set up by men who felt they needed them: perhaps it would be better to ask why they are not getting set up by men who need them?

Look up Erin Pizzey- she makes an excellent foundation for any research into this area. After founding the world's first women's shelter, she discovered in interviews that many (if not most) of her victims were also abusers themselves. She suggested opening a men's shelter, and was driven from her own movement- receiving death threats, and being forced from her home after he dog was shot and left at her door. IIRC, she said that it came down to money. It was easier to raise money for women than for men or even just people... And easier to control, too.

> do you know of any feminists who are claiming that [men should receive harsher punishments] should be the case?

Feminists saying women shouldn't be jailed for anything https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/...

[geofft]

> Feminists saying women shouldn't be jailed for anything https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/...

My reading of that is that she wants nobody to be imprisoned, she just thinks that for various reasons, the argument is more realistic for women right now -- for instance, the far lower incarceration rate of women, and the otherwise-irrelevant practical reason that there's a O(number of incarcerated genders) monetary cost in prisons with a high constant factor. Getting all the women out of prison is a greater cost savings than getting the same number of men out, and easier than getting all the men out. But I don't see any indication that she thinks her arguments wouldn't apply to men as well: "Essentially, the case for closing women’s prisons is the same as the case for imprisoning fewer men."

[gambler]

You describe objectification as patterns of behaviors and speech. However, the most common use of that term I see these days refers to female characters in fiction and advertising. There is a gigantic difference between these two notions.

In a similar fashion, your entire post is misaligned with the kind of feminism I see on the daily basis.

[new_corp_dev]

There is a very strong disparity between feminism's words and actions. They call for equality, but in reality use it as a sword to strike at men.

http://reason.com/archives/2015/07/23/sexist-scientist-tim-h...

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldberg-rosetta-...

Some small form of feminism may still be necessary in this day and age, but no meaningful progress can be made until the extremes of modern feminism are torn down.

[electronvolt]

> You describe objectification as patterns of behaviors and speech. However, the most common use of that term I see these days refers to female characters in fiction and advertising. There is a gigantic difference between these two notions.

This is true. Objectification is a complex subject with lots of potential targets: you can treat a person as a sexual object, you can portray/view a character as a sexual object, etc. In the context of that post, I was referring to specific complaints of flesh and blood women RE: being objectified. Objectification in fiction and advertising is a separate thing: characters who exist primarily to titillate a male audience's sexual desires would qualify... as would characters who exist primarily to titillate a female audience's sexual desires. (See: Magic Mike, Magic Mike XXL for really good examples of male characters who are pretty obviously objectified.)

To be completely honest: I don't have any serious problem with what I'd view to be pulp-y fiction or characters in the rough. (Hell, romance novel characters seriously qualify here too!) However, if it seemed like every male lead character in a genre primarily characterized by how they were "tall, dark, and handsome, with a bad boy streak and a heart of gold" then I'd probably get the message that the genre was not necessarily aimed at me or about characters I could relate to or find interesting. If that was true of all genres, or most popular works, then I'd probably get the message that I wasn't the audience for any genre, and perhaps even that men existed to be "tall dark and handsome" and should behave as "bad boys with a heart of gold". Being short and generally well behaved, I'd probably complain about unrealistic male characters who ride horses into the sunset and have perfect abs. Perhaps I'd even come to believe that I should wear platform shoes, work out all the time and never eat to get the abs I needed, start behaving like a bad boy, and learn how to ride horses so that I could meet a basic bar of manliness. Fortunately, that fantasy world that I just described doesn't exist for me, because romance novels are not the primary genre or what we base our societal expectations of men on, but replace "tall dark and handsome and a bad boy with a heart of gold" with "skinny, brunette, and buxom" and you begin to hit the issues that some women have with many video games.

> In a similar fashion, your entire post is misaligned with the kind of feminism I see on the daily basis.

The thing is, my post is aligned with the feminism I believe in and try to push forward. It's aligned with the feminism that I've heard expressed by my close friends, some of whom are activists for various feminist causes (equal job rights, etc.). That doesn't necessarily correspond with the loudest "feminist" voices on the internet (or tumblr), in the same way that someone like "Maddox" doesn't necessarily correspond to mainstream male views.

[gambler]

> Objectification is a complex subject with lots of potential targets: you can treat a person as a sexual object, you can portray/view a character as a sexual object, etc.

To me this sounds less like a product of a complex underlying notion and more like simple inconsistency created by equating fundamentally different things.

Characters are not people. They are fictional entities. Arguing that it is immoral to design them in a way that sets "unrealistic" examples of behavior attacks the foundational premise of fiction itself. There is no rational criteria that would make this a valid argument in regards to sexuality while sparing any other aspect of human behavior.

So yes, there are plenty of one-dimensional characters who are products of someone's fantasies, designed to appeal to a select audience. That's a design/writing issue, not moral/social issue. If you're arguing to the contrary, you're effectively demanding to edit all fiction to become a form of propaganda.

[ectoplasm]

I got a little lost reading your comment. Are you saying that it's fine having unrealistic fictional characters because it has no bearing on the real world? If so, then first, humans use stories as a primary means of teaching moral behavior. Second, when it comes to movies the actors playing the characters are real people. I mean, just look at all the damage done by the fictional stories in holy books.

[gambler]

Are you saying that it's fine having unrealistic fictional characters because it has no bearing on the real world?

No, I think we should put anyone who creates unrealistic fictional characters in prison. Maximum security. Single confinement on weekends. Or maybe just shoot the bastards.

[ectoplasm]

Now that would make for an interesting story! Just be careful not to stereotype the inmates...

[new_corp_dev]

> Physical attraction alone does not disregard a person's humanity or personal agency.

Your argument is perfectly reasonable, it would be nice if other feminists understood the difference. In my experience, it is more often used as a spark for a larger confrontation or an excuse to bash males in general.

> I never said anything about forcing or denying abortions, only that a woman has the right to cede responsibility for reproduction whereas a man has none. If a woman chooses to abort or put a child up for adoption, she is well within her rights to do so. If a man suggests the same thing, he is a "deadbeat".

In an ideal world, a father would be told of the pregnancy immediately, and given the opportunity to absolve himself of responsibility for it. With this knowledge in hand, the mother would have the opportunity to decide to abort, give up for adoption, or keep the child with the understanding that there would be no (legally mandated) financial support from the father.

> So as long as an exaggerated body image is accompanied by power and dominance, it shouldn't place unfair expectations on impressionable viewers?

I most often see it as a corollary to arguments about the representation of women in movies/TV/video games. If the representation of a fictional woman is attacked for unrealistic standards, the rebuttal will be that the men are held to the same standards by male characters in the same space. Feminists then reply that it is a "male power fantasy" and does not count.

A perfect example, and most of the women's "before" representations aren't even unrealistic to begin with!

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/lara-croft-gets-a-realistic...

> The idea of sexuality as being negative is also unhealthy, for both genders.

A "sex positive" outlook would not care whether or not Bayonetta was designed by or for men. Bayonetta would have the inherent right to dress and behave as she pleases, with no care for the viewer's tastes.

> Men also can and do suffer terrible experiences as the hands of women, and can be dominated by them. If a woman gets "safe spaces", so, too, should men.

If you go to a college campus and attempt to set up a "mens center" in the same vein as the womens centers that are increasingly common, you will most likely be 1) called a misogynist, 2) not taken seriously, 3) not succeed.

You will also very likely be harassed and carry the "misogynist" label for the remainder of your tenure there. School newspapers will have carte blanche to drag your name through the mud in any way they can. An "example" will be made of you.

> You must have missed the part where I mentioned men also get serious threats to their person, and that there are documented cases where those threats have been acted upon.

https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/enough

Anyone, man or woman, that disagrees with feminist narratives, can be immediately and unquestionably be labelled a harasser and misogynist.

In case you don't care to listen to that SoundCloud, it involves a case where a man tries to remain a voice of reason in an online debate that has extremists on both sides, and because he adhered more strongly to ethical standards than "choosing a side" he was labeled the enemy. He has seen harassment and vitriol slung at him primarily from the "feminist" side, and even a great deal from people that could be considered celebrities. Those people will gladly attack him, and have absolutely no fear of reprisal for doing so.

The only time they face the consequences for their actions is when they upset their own compatriots. In those cases, they will not hesitate to turn on them like a pack of rabid dogs on an injured prey. But that is only the same hatred that is flung at men every day in that space.

> http://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_gender....

http://gothamist.com/2013/04/29/male_teachers_get_longer_sen...

This is a small example, however every time it's brought up it's immediately shut down by popular feminist voices.

"Longer prison sentences for men" is not a stated goal of feminism, but maintaining that status quo which greatly benefits women and greatly disadvantages men, is time and again strongly implied by their words and actions.

[lizdenys]

I feel like other people have said what I want to say about your other points, but...

> If you go to a college campus and attempt to set up a "mens center" in the same vein as the womens centers that are increasingly common, you will most likely be 1) called a misogynist, 2) not taken seriously, 3) not succeed.

Interestingly, one of the longest running institutions at universities are fraternities.

[ectoplasm]

Sororities are "women's centers"?

[lizdenys]

I wouldn't use the term "women's center", but in many ways, sororities are examples of the "safe spaces" referenced in the sentence before:

> Men also can and do suffer terrible experiences as the hands of women, and can be dominated by them. If a woman gets "safe spaces", so, too, should men.

[electronvolt]

> Your argument is perfectly reasonable, it would be nice if other feminists understood the difference. In my experience, it is more often used as a spark for a larger confrontation or an excuse to bash males in general.

This may be a kind of blunt observation, but perhaps you see what you're looking for?

I don't think I've even met a single person, male or female, who seriously complained when someone (a) expressed interest in a reasonable way/place/situation and (b) was clearly willing to not continue if the person who had interest expressed in them did not reciprocate. Both (a) and (b) have had to be the case for all men and women I know to be comfortable with people's expression of interest: and its been my female friend's experience that men are generally much worse about both (a) and (b). Does that mean all men are bad at (a) and (b)? No. But most of my friends who're women have at least one story (usually many more) about a guy who was bad about both (a) and (b), and the incidence in friends who're men is much lower (although goes up again if you limit it to just my gay friends--turns out gay men are not necessarily magical wizards about being good at (a) and (b)). Taken out of context, a woman complaining about how several men have been bad at (a) and (b) in her life seems like something you'd be likely to read as "bashing men" as a whole, especially if you didn't have any context for her complaints. Not hearing the whole story here might be exacerbated if your general model for interacting with women who bring up their frustrations here is to go on the offensive. ("not all men are like that!"/etc.) If I wanted to vent about an unpleasant experience, I know I wouldn't go to someone I thought might engage me in an argument over it rather than listen, and I'd almost certainly shut down any argument that happened and refuse to share more if I felt like I was being attacked. That's human nature and not at all unreasonable: the last place I would've gone after I was read as gay and threatened with violence by a group of drunk men would be someone who'd I'd imagine would've told me that "not all Southern men are like that" or questioned me on it--I went to the closest gay friendly bar I could find and promptly got sloshed before getting a trusted friend to drive me home.

> If you go to a college campus and attempt to set up a "mens center" in the same vein as the womens centers that are increasingly common, you will most likely be 1) called a misogynist, 2) not taken seriously, 3) not succeed.

The thing is: is this a problem with feminism? I'd argue no. I think that you'd get a lot of pushback from more mainstream culture, and that push back would likely be very tied to patriarchal (as a hegemonic system) ideals about what men "should" be or do or how they "should" act.

> A "sex positive" outlook would not care whether or not Bayonetta was designed by or for men. Bayonetta would have the inherent right to dress and behave as she pleases, with no care for the viewer's tastes.

As a fictional character, Bayonetta has no will or desires beyond what her creators attribute to her. If we were talking about an actual woman here, I'd agree completely: but we're talking about a fictional character who uses magic. Critiquing characters and critiquing people are two very different things. As a counterpoint: I'd argue that characters like "He Man" (or many other male superheroes) or those in "Magic Mike" are a male equivalent and just as unrealistic.

> This is a small example, however every time it's brought up it's immediately shut down by popular feminist voices.

I'm not aware of things like this getting shut down except in cases where its brought up as a bit of a red herring to distract from another debate. I'm not aware of any feminist voices that have literally said "Male teachers who assault their students should go to jail for a longer period of time"--In fact I think the general feminist critical theory perspective would be that patriarchal ideas about sex (i.e. that men always want it, etc.) contribute to lower than deserved prison sentences for female teachers who abuse male students. What was the context for this getting brought up and "immediately shut down"?

[new_corp_dev]

> This may be a kind of blunt observation, but perhaps you see what you're looking for?

Saying I'm looking for an excuse to get offended in a conversation about feminism is a level of pot and kettle I haven't experienced before.

I can barely turn a corner anymore without being accused of objectifying women somehow. Every movie I want to watch, every video game I want to play, everything "objectifies" women somehow now, as long as it has any hint of sexuality and male demographic.

So you haven't come across and/or recognized that yet. Good for you, you're living in an ideal future and I someday hope to join you there.

> The thing is: is this a problem with feminism? I'd argue no. I think that you'd get a lot of pushback from more mainstream culture, and that push back would likely be very tied to patriarchal (as a hegemonic system) ideals about what men "should" be or do or how they "should" act.

"Patriarchy is not some claim that men are responsible for everything bad that happens."

"This isn't feminism, it's the patriarchy."

Sure, it's primarily feminists that fight those initiatives, but they're not acting in their capacity as a feminist. They took that hat off first.

> As a fictional character, Bayonetta has no will or desires beyond what her creators attribute to her. If we were talking about an actual woman here, I'd agree completely: but we're talking about a fictional character who uses magic. Critiquing characters and critiquing people are two very different things. As a counterpoint: I'd argue that characters like "He Man" (or many other male superheroes) or those in "Magic Mike" are a male equivalent and just as unrealistic.

Feminists say that fictional women (Barbie et. al) are representative of women as a whole, and should be treated as such.

If this is the case, then a fictional female character has the right to be represented as a complete character, sexuality and all.

If you're telling me it's otherwise, then why does a fictional female character's sexuality even merit discussion?

> I'm not aware of any feminist voices that have literally said "Male teachers who assault their students should go to jail for a longer period of time"

Well I'm aware of at least one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/...

> What was the context for this getting brought up and "immediately shut down"?

http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down...

[electronvolt]

> I can barely turn a corner anymore without being accused of objectifying women somehow. Every movie I want to watch, every video game I want to play, everything "objectifies" women somehow now, as long as it has any hint of sexuality and male demographic. > So you haven't come across and/or recognized that yet. Good for you, you're living in an ideal future and I someday hope to join you there.

Not at all.

A huge amount of mainstream media and art is aimed towards men, marketed to men, designed to titillate men, and involves objectification of women. To be completely honest: I don't think that completely removes it of any artistic merit (or fun factor for video games) or that it means you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it.

Similarly, I firmly would defend a woman's right to enjoy (the small, percentage wise, and often looked down upon, culturally) pieces of media which are marketed to women, aimed at women, designed to titillate women, and involve objectification of male characters.

I honestly believe that people should be allowed to enjoy the media that they enjoy as long as it isn't harming other people, as long as they are willing to do some critical thinking about what enjoying it means. If you have done some critical thinking about what your enjoying of media that objectifies women says about you, your sexuality, and etc., and are comfortable with that, then who am I to stand in your way? If, however, you believe that all media should be that way, I'd have a bone to pick. If you don't believe that all media should be that way, then perhaps you should consider sampling other forms of media (including those aimed at women! Some romance novels can be /quite/ fun: I'd personally recommend Eloisa James, as her novels are accessible, adult without being particularly pornographic, and quite intelligent, and have quite interesting female leads) or pushing for media that is more accessible for people who aren't you. If it seems like 'absolutely everything' you want to consume involves objectification of women, then perhaps your taste in media leans towards the kind of mainstream media that doesn't include well rounded female characters, and perhaps those desires would be worth delving into and examining critically.

My root point is, though, that asking for well rounded, realistic female characters in what people are marketing as the primary pieces of an art form is totally reasonable, just as it would be reasonable for me to demand art or media that doesn't only portray "tall dark handsome men who're bad boys with a streak of gold" male characters. The problem is when two dimensional characters who are comparable in depth and characterization to the male leads of some romance novels are the only or the primary examples of female protagonists, or trumpeted as beacons of equality.

> Sure, it's primarily women that fight those initiatives, but they're not acting in their capacity as a feminist. They took that hat off first.

Women, even women who identify as feminists, do not always act completely in accordance with the principles they espouse. It may surprise you to learn that religious people, democrats, republicans, libertarians, etc. also fall victim to this. I don't know the details of the things you're referencing, but tbh it sounds like a bunch of college students behaved as a mob. That kind of thing is never alright.

> Feminists say that fictional women (Barbie et. al) are representative of women as a whole, and should be treated as such. If this is the case, then a fictional female character has the right to be represented as a complete character, sexuality and all. If you're telling me it's otherwise, then why does a fictional female character's sexuality even merit discussion?

Barbie, as a product, is marketed as an ideal that all (or most) (white?) women should push towards. If there was a good, interesting range of complete portrayals of fictional women in mainstream film, television, and video games at all, then one or two or even a genre of uniform female characters wouldn't be a problem for me (or, indeed, I think most feminists--do you hear many women decrying the two dimensional female characters in grocery store spy novels, which I'd claim are probably the male equivalent of romance novels? I certainly haven't heard a lot of uproar over that.), just as a genre or piece with flat male characters wouldn't be a problem! It is when all or most representations of women in all or most media are two dimensional and unrealistic (and this is being called 'progress') that there is a problem. Unfortunately, that's largely also the current state of affairs! There has been a lot of great movement towards interesting/nonstandard female leads in recent television (Interestingly, I'd say that Mad Men comes to mind as a very strong example of this, despite its period setting.) and I think that trend is moving into movies as well, so hopefully this state of affairs won't last forever.

> https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/...

That's an interesting argument, although to be completely honest it seems kind of ridiculous. Replace "women" with "people" in that article and aside from needing to fix the statistics RE: violent crime, you have a pretty standard (if slightly overwrought) argument against imprisoning most nonviolent offenders--which isn't completely beyond the pale and something I could get behind.

> http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down...

College students are dumb. They always have been, they probably always will be. The funny thing is, they almost certainly have legitimate complaints about the campus culture, society, and the world, but they're likely behaving in such a juvenile fashion because they feel like it's one of the few ways they /can/ affect change. Judging every anti-war protester by the actions of the Weathermen would also paint a pretty bad picture of anti-war protest.