[city41]

Why do you say the other makers are passive? BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, VW, Ford and Fiat all have fully electric cars. Sure none of them get near the range the Model S does, but they are getting involved in this. A Nissan Leaf offers roughly one third the specs of a Model S, but also at one third the price. Seems like progress to me.

[rsync]

"Why do you say the other makers are passive? BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, VW, Ford and Fiat all have fully electric cars."

BMW has an i3 that is basically an Onion article parody version of an electric car. If you had to draw a comic of an electric car, that's what you'd draw.

They also have an absolutely ridiculous "electric" i8 that has a lawnmower engine shoehorned in it somewhere and you can listen to that fire off every now and then while you drive your luxury car around. And oh, yeah, it goes 0-60 in 4.4 seconds and they actually advertise that fact.

Mercedes also has a lame little clown car (the B-class, or whatever it is) and a bunch of "luxury" models with little chainsaw engines hidden somewhere inside. Good thing they do all that sound dampening since who wants to hear a chuggy little 3 or 4-banger fire up at every stoplight.

It's stupefying. It's flabbergasting. It defies all logic.

And it's not like it's 2002 or something and they're all reacting to the prius ... they've all had 15 fucking years to come up with something, anything that doesn't make them a joke. And they have nothing.

I don't particularly like the styling of the model S, and I really don't like the interior, and I really, really don't like a big styling void in the middle of the dash where that 17" monitor sits, but I put down a deposit and am taking delivery.

It is a spite purchase. I refuse to pay an incumbent one more cent for the privilege of enabling their anachronistic product model.

[TwoBit]

I don't get that part about a styling void, but I agree with the rest.

[dntrkv]

Problem with the Leaf is that a 75 mile range is unusable for most people. A 30 mile commute is pretty common, to and from work and you're almost out. Pick up kids and groceries and you'll probably be stuck on the side of the road somewhere. Forget to charge the car overnight and you're screwed.

If we take the base Model S, which has a 230 mile range, 315hp, and 0-60mph in 5.5 seconds, it goes for $70k minus $10k in tax subsidies. And compare it to the Nissan Leaf SL which has a 84 miles range, 107hp, and 0-60mph in 10.2 seconds, it goes for $35k - $7.5k in tax subsidies.

So it's exactly half the price, for much less then half the car. The Tesla has the highest safety rating out there. It handles really well. You get free charging station access. I mean, it doesn't even make sense to compare the cars. Even when you account for price, you are still getting way more than twice the car when you get the Tesla.

Progress for me would be Nissan offering a car comparable to the Model S for a comparable price.

[city41]

According to Edmunds, the MSRP on the Model S 60 (the base model) is $79,570. The average price paid in my area is $79,570. I don't actually know, but I suspect Tesla does not haggle on price.

The MSRP for the Leaf is $30,585, and average price paid in my area is $25,682.

Edmunds does not account for tax subsidies. I think we can both twiddle the numbers in our favor. So the question is, what are the actual cost of ownership of these cars? I still strongly suspect, the Leaf costs roughly 1/3 of the Tesla and is roughly 1/3 of a car.

[sokoloff]

I bought a LEAF SL in Dec for $31K and change before $10K in credits. That was less than a third the cost of a Model S after rebates, IIRC.

On the downside, range is closer to 75 miles in the winter (driving normally for MA, meaning fairly fast) and a pretty regular 90-95 miles in the summer.

Overall, I love it. It's no Tesla and is not a economic winner over a good used car, but it's a damned good car and I think it's one of the most economic of the new cars, even with MA insane cost of electricity.

[adevine]

Saying "twice the car/half the car", like they're pints and quarts, doesn't really make sense, though.

The Nissan Leaf is intended to be a city (or at least "close in suburb") car. With my 10 mile/20 minute commute, in a city with horrible public transportation, makes the Leaf ideal. Especially since I can afford a Leaf, a Model S not so much.

[seanflyon]

With the exception of the Leaf, all those fully electric cars seem more like tests or prototypes than serious attempts to win the market. Nissan is anything but passive when it comes to fully electric cars, but all the other major car makers are being, in my opinion, overly cautious.

[vectorjohn]

I just got a Fiat 500e, it is a bad ass car, and definitely doesn't feel like a test or prototype. It gets more like 85 miles (it better, it's much smaller than a Leaf), and works for almost all the transportation I need. I haven't bothered to set up a high voltage charger or anything, and I've been amazed by the convenience of it.

I agree though, they should really be pushing these electric cars. They're awesome. They're a pleasure to drive. I hate going back to gas, just shifting and the low torque are noticeable and now annoying. Maybe they just suck at advertising (doubtful) or they have other motives.

[durkie]

Hah, the Fiat 500e is the one that the Chrysler CEO explicitly said "I hope you don't buy it"[1]

[1] http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092315_chrysler-ceo-und...

[city41]

The VW e-Golf and BMW i3 are no less cars than the Leaf is. The e-Golf in particular competes directly with the Leaf, offering similar features and price. The i3 is pretty pricy, but it is a BMW after all.

[seanflyon]

I agree with you about the e-Golf. I had previously seen numbers like this: http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ that make the e-golf look like they were converting a few hundred cars to electric drivetrains as a test, but I didn't realize that the car was selling in meaningful numbers in Europe. I would love to know if they are making a profit on them or plan to in the near future. You might be right about the i3 as well, but everything about it screams "concept car" in my mind. I also consider the Volt to be a serious attempt to win the market, but it's not a fully electric vehicle.