[polymatter]

But keeping salaries secret leads to rumour and speculation. How is that better? Especially when you make it so taboo to talk about, it just makes it more exciting. Especially so since you can't hide the externalities.

I'll give you an example. When we learnt a girl from finance owned her own horse, the gossip around the office was not how did she skrimp and save, but what she needed to do to whom to receive such an obviously large salary. I have no doubt she did just save her money well but thanks to keeping everyone's salary secret, we have vicious rumours instead of fact.

If you are really hiring people who honestly believe that everyone apart from them contribute little to the company, then you are hiring incredibly arrogant people. If you are really hiring people who honestly would be surprised that some people earn more than others, then you are hiring incredibly naive people.

fwiw, I earn £27,000 as a C#/Java developer in central London and I know I am extremely poor at salary negotiation so I expect I am grossly underpaid. This causes me resentment. Salary negotiations involve me having to justify myself or backhandedly belittling the contributions of my colleagues. ie. exactly the sorts of problems you believe that keeping salaries secret solves.

There is only one reason for keeping salaries secret, and that is to keep wages down. That benefits employers, and it benefits those who are great at negotiating.

[petercooper]

fwiw, I earn £27,000 as a C#/Java developer in central London and I know I am extremely poor at salary negotiation so I expect I am grossly underpaid.

I mean this in a nice way, but what you lack in salary negotiation skills you could make up in tolerating a job hunt and switching. In London, if you're intermediate or better with those skills, you could probably find positions with a 50% higher publicly stated salary?

Not sure about the horse thing though. You can get stabled livery and pay all the various horse related expenses on about £5K a year. My car costs me more.

[e40]

When we learnt a girl from finance owned her own horse, the gossip around the office was not how did she skrimp and save, but what she needed to do to whom to receive such an obviously large salary. I have no doubt she did just save her money well but thanks to keeping everyone's salary secret, we have vicious rumours instead of fact.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain stupidity. There are many, many reasons how the woman (I assume, not an actual "girl") would have a horse. The combined income of her and her spouse might have allowed it. It might have been a gift from someone.

If your coworkers are using stuff like this as the basis for gossip... you work with some horrible people.

[polymatter]

You are right I shouldn't refer to a woman in her early 20's as a girl. Its a habit when I thought "girl" meant, woman younger than me. Sorry.

Horses are expensive to maintain, even if they are gifted to you for free. But people use all sorts of basis for gossip.

[Flenser]

Horses also take up a lot of time (or rather if you have one, you will spend a lot of time with it to get the most out of what you are paying for it), which means you aren't spending money on other things.

People often make the mistake of thinking "how can they afford <expensive thing> when I can't (because of all the <expensive things> I have to pay for)" without thinking that maybe the other person has a different lifestyle/priories to them.

[brightball]

This is essentially the problem which you are seeing from a different angle and that's okay.

This example for instance:

"I'll give you an example. When we learnt a girl from finance owned her own horse, the gossip around the office was not how did she skrimp and save, but what she needed to do to whom to receive such an obviously large salary. I have no doubt she did just save her money well but thanks to keeping everyone's salary secret, we have vicious rumours instead of fact."

The reality is...it's really not anybody's business. People are asking for an answer to a question that really isn't their concern. I have a nice house. People who see it assume I make a lot more than I do. Reality is that I got it for about half price in a foreclosure. Can people speculate about how much I make...sure. Is it their business to deserve an answer to how I have what I have...not really. If stating her salary really would end the rumors and she was concerned about that, she could just tell people by choice. Odds are she doesn't care that much.

And then this:

"If you are really hiring people who honestly believe that everyone apart from them contribute little to the company, then you are hiring incredibly arrogant people."

That's not what I said. I said there's a value proposition for certain people that the business feels justifies their compensation. I didn't say that those people thought everybody else contribute little, only that as far as the business is concerned their compensation is justified.

Or this:

"If you are really hiring people who honestly would be surprised that some people earn more than others, then you are hiring incredibly naive people."

Agree but this is what happens. People find out somebody makes more than them, doesn't understand why they make what they make and resents it. Regardless of cause. Sometimes it's justified. Sometimes it's not. Forcing the person who makes more to constantly justify it to everybody doesn't solve the problem of people feeling like they deserve more.

Shoot, when I got out of college I thought I could work my tail off and be a VP in 5 years. Also thought I was worth a lot more than I was when I had very little experience. This happens in MANY people with less experience who don't understand exactly HOW MUCH they don't understand. I was naive then and I know better now.

In London, as far as I know your compensation is about right. I actually worked remote for a London based company for a while for about half what I made in the US. Some of the factors were around health care, exchange rate, state of the company (start up). In the US C# programmers are in EXTREMELY high demand.

Where I live right now, your skill set, without knowing much about your experience would land you a job probably making twice what you make right now.

And I live in one of the poorer areas of the US. Right to work state. Disclosure generally happens from job postings with a salary range based on experience. That's just what supply and demand does. If there's demand for your skill set, recruiters will seek you out, you'll see job postings and salary listing for people with your skills and you'll quickly identify whether you are under compensated for your area.

People get an idea of the range that a position should pay but they don't get to know the private specifics of each person's compensation.

[polymatter]

> This is essentially the problem which you are seeing from a different angle and that's okay.

Having thought about this, I think you're right. I can see how keeping salaries secret doesn't cause the issues I suggested it does. Sorry, reading my post now I come across as needlessly combative.

Personally, being transparent about salaries makes me trust the management more. I think more transparency is generally a good thing and I don't think there are any big negatives to keeping salaries secret. But it doesn't cause the issues I suggested it does.