[anigbrowl]

In a democratic republic (and since the Greeks originated this concept, I think we can allow that they understand it) voters are responsible for the actions of the government they elect. To say people aren't accountable at all for government borrowing is silly; ultimately it's the electorate's responsibility to ask candidates and political parties how they intend to pay for their programs. Of course, it's very hard for voters to understand a whole economy and assess whether a party's proposals are good or bad, or to assess whether a party or politician is likely to be able to deliver on intentions, no matter how sensible, or to fall back on other measures. I'm pretty sure that when Syriza was elected their collective hope was not just to be in conflict with other EU countries but to get the Greek economy growing again so as to increase revenue and reduce the ratio of debt:productivity, but of course what you hope to achieve and what you can actually get done are often two different things.

I also think the referendum vote was the correct one because other countries, politicians, and populations in Europe have been deluding themselves about this situation to almost as great a degree as the Greeks were, and it's plain that the existing strategy has just resulted in the Greek economy shrinking more and more and the external debt becoming impossible to pay.

But this notion that the population of a democratic country is in no wise accountable for the actions of its government is just facile. It's like trying to get out of your chores by saying 'I didn't ask to be born!' Well it's true you didn't, but you still have to clean up your room before dinner.

[BerislavLopac]

> In a democratic republic (and since the Greeks originated this concept, I think we can allow that they understand it)

This point keeps being repeated, but even if we allowed that historical political achievement could direct the actual national mentality, please consider that since the times of ancient democracy Greece has mostly seen governments which are still remembered as the epitomes of dictatorship and politicking -- from Byzantium, through Ottoman Empire, all the way to the post-WWII military regime. Today's common mentality in most of the Balkans, including Greece, is very far from the ideals of the Athenian democracy (which was itself not really very democratic, leaving out the large majority of people such as women, slaves etc).

[anigbrowl]

I completely agree, but I think that political agency also involves an acceptance of responsibility. To suggest that populations are helpless against governments that promptly borrow them into penury is as much magical thinking as the idea that you can just cut your way to prosperity. In reality you don't usually see people running out into the street to protest additional government borrowing. (Please note that I think the Greek crisis is a lot more complex than a few numbers on a national balance sheet, but I don't see any point in trying to re-summarize it in every single comment.)

[marcosdumay]

As far as I'm counting, Syriza was the third government of Greece elected on the promise of no further borrowing. One other party changed his worldview as soon as elected, the other changed only after several closed-door negotiations with Troyka (that let people talking of everything, from bribery to death threats, so, no idea about what really happened).

Holding the people of Greece accountable for the action of those governments based on the fact that the country is a "democracy" is a complete delusion.

By the way, we should use the same rationale for other countries, and should hold the guilty accountable of their actions more often, instead of the innocent.

[anigbrowl]

Reread the second sentence in my post above. An electorate's responsibility does not end with the selection of the rosiest-sounding promises.

[marcosdumay]

To be fair, a default is not a rosy scenario by any means. It's the Troika that is trying to extend and pretend here.

The fact that Greek representatives acted in a manner that's the complete opposition of what they claimed they'd do once elected means that the country isn't that democratic. Thus, you can't implicate the people for voting on them.

Whatever scenario those politicians sold (and I have no idea what they are) are not relevant. They promised specific actions, and they broke that promise.

[tomp]

> In a democratic republic (and since the Greeks originated this concept, I think we can allow that they understand it) voters are responsible for the actions of the government they elect.

Don't be ridiculous. Sure, "democracy" is better than dictatorship, but choice between two (or three) bad options every 4 years isn't actual choice, and you can't hold the voters responsible for every mistake the governments commit after they're elected.

I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm sure that your government made plenty of mistakes that you don't want to be responsible for. US - destroyed Iraq. UK - helped establish ISIS. Slovenia - unconstitutionally ignored gay rights for a number of years. Off the top of my head.

[anigbrowl]

I'm from Ireland but live in the US. Of course there are things I am not happy with the government about at any given time, and technically I'm not responsible for what government does in the US since I can't vote in US elections, but insofar as I support the US by living here, paying taxes, and so on, I do feel a little bit responsible even for things I disagree with. Of course individual voters have very little power and it's very difficult to actively lobby government without getting into the 'political-industrial complex'.

But in the aggregate, having political agency means you have to live with the ramifications of the electoral decisions you make in the normal course of things.