[firethief]

Have you really never heard of the benefits of the placebo response? Plus there's the social benefits of people focusing on good things and potentially manifesting them, and the community benefit of coming together to pray, and psychological benefits are a possibility, although I don't think that's well-studied (or even measurable?) enough to start that debate.

Prayer is like meat - it isn't for everyone, but if you're not getting it you have to be careful not to miss out on certain things.

[dylanjermiah]

>"Have you really never heard of the benefits of the placebo response?"

Do you have any evidence to support the benefits of a placebo effect in relation to religion and/or prayer?

>"plus there's the social benefits of people focusing on good things and potentially manifesting them, and the community benefit of coming together to pray, and psychological benefits are a possibility,"

What social benefits? What good things? What psychological benefits?

>"Although I don't think that's well-studied (or even measurable?) enough to start that debate."

Seems very convenient to me.

>"Prayer is like meat - it isn't for everyone, but if you're not getting it you have to be careful not to miss out on certain things."

What certain things?

Your comment seems awfully shallow in content to me, lacking in any specifics.

[crpatino]

> Do you have any evidence to support the benefits of a placebo effect in relation to religion and/or prayer?

So, you are implying that there is a switch that will magically turn off beneficial parts of human biology (such as some well known and researched mechanisms like the placebo effect) for those and only those humans that engage in activities that you find personally disgusting (such as religion and prayer).

That's the most overtly religious belief I have seen expressed by a self professed rationalist, you know...

[dylanjermiah]

You've come to some incorrect conclusions.

If someone makes a particular claim, the burden of proof is on them.

[crpatino]

I don't think that means what you think it means. The claim that says people get measurable benefits from "cures" and "solutions" that have no physical effect are scientist, medical researchers actually. That claim would probably benefit from closer investigation and a refined understanding of the mechanism that makes that happen would be useful, but the basic claim is probably demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt.

What you are saying is that if the "cure" in question is prayer instead of sugar pill, then this requires extra burden of proof because the universe is somehow bound to not listen to religious people. Or, to put it more bluntly, prayer would have to be extra harmful in order to counter whatever placebo effect might be at play.

This is a very peculiar belief, not rational but political in nature. In the economics of rhetoric there is a zero sum game: "for my argument to win my opponents must be seen to be in the wrong".

[jfoutz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewan...

tl/dr; inconclusive, hard to get funding.