[astrocyte]

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you...

Linux/open source is full of such individuals.

They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry of tech and more to do with a group of misfits who like to frazzle people for the lulz.

Get the police involved and keep these unfounded broad based attacks of a whole industry to yourself. By making such statements, you're attacking people unjustly and doing the same thing to others that is being done to you. Techies are not rapist... I could care less if you're male/female. The industry is not fucked. You just got trolled by some dweebs on the internet.

One pronounced incident and everyone is ready to cast stones at an industry.. If anything, this needs to stop. It's really getting old and, as someone who does their best to value/see people as equals as a good number in tech do, I'm getting tired of this sh*t.

[Kapura]

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common.

And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing.

You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you become complacent and say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Never stop fighting for equal treatment. Never say it's OK.

[astrocyte]

This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin, they will and will do so even more.

I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to be seen as equals just as men are. Guess what men have to do ? Deal w/ shit .. Shit we don't like on a daily basis. I don't get to create a blog post and have a swarm of women running to my defense? Why all the white knights when women have to go through shit? So, no.. there are standards that are still there. Standards by which men by and large defend women and treat them even above men.

I'm a minority (African American) in tech. Yes, please lets have a sit down so you can tell me all about the kind of crap that occurs. I'm obviously oblivious to it all and have no perspective.

It's not o.k but it's called trolling and this has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ the clown assery that is par for the course on the internet. So, I don't in anyway support her blog post. It is ignorant and ill-informed. Just think about it... You think men making six figures at prominent tech companies with a social life, a girlfriend, wife/daughters, and moms are sitting around typing out death threats and rape threats to some random woman in tech when they get home?

No. This is not common. It has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ shock-and-awe trolling on the internet. It's 2015. Get up-to-date with what's happening on the internet and stop running to women's rescue every time they have to to go through shit. They have announced they want to be seen as equals and treated as men are .. So, let them deal with and overcome their own shit... trolling being the least of things to be all bent out of shape about.

You disagree? Well, I guess some things haven't changed in society.. Namely that men by and large are still quite protective of women and hold them on high... Quite Contrary to what she and you are trying to portray...

[Kapura]

I have been on webforums since I was a wee lad and I've spent much of that time as a dyed in the wool troll. I "get" trolling. I understand the psychology that drives people to troll. I've been trolled myself. But there is a difference between calling somebody 'and idoit' and the sorts of harassment that is still all too common today.

Don't think I don't understand how it happens. I went to /v/ at the height of gamergate. I've seen doxxings before too. But as I've become an adult it has become a deeply disturbing part of a culture I once cherished as my own.

But if nobody speaks up, if nobody is there to raise the counterpoint and make a frustrated social outcast think about what he's doing, change will come too slowly for me to be fine just sitting by and letting it happen.

I don't want to diminish what you've had to deal with either. I don't think it's somehow more OK. But I don't think that anybody should have to deal with bullshit based on their cultural history or who they are, regardless of how it's presented. If you had written that post about he shit you've had to deal with being black in a primarily white field, I would still be here, as disgusted and as eager to see a change.

Is this a problem which applies exclusively to the tech industry? No. But I refuse to accept that it's just part of living in the internet age. I truly believe that if we can make people understand just how not-ok this sort of thing is, we have a shot at correcting these sorts of behaviours for the next digital generation.

[forgottenpass]

You have a relateable experience people could learn from. But they don't like the message, so they'll resort to the media approved category of blame (sexism). I appreciated your posts in this thread and wish you didn't get so thoroughly downvoted.

[astrocyte]

lol @ all the downvotes I'm getting for this and the swift retracing of upvotes of my initial thread due this extended commentary.

I would delete this but i'm going to let it stay... Just goes to show you the depth of people's view on such issues. You want to go on and on about surface issues and foolishness that has nothing to do w/ the root. Yet, the minute someone brings up something real.. Oh no !! That's too much for you. Back to regularly scheduled program of man/tech bashing/white knighting a woman who was a victim of internet trolling and making all men out to be savages..

[slater]

Hahaha yeah, couldn't be that people are downvoting you for legitimate reasons, no sirree! Can only be white-knighting!

[astrocyte]

Engage in commentary then instead of anonymously pulling out your whiteknight sword because I'm not towing the comfort line you're accustomed to. You feel something was wrong in my commentary, hash it out with me. I'll respond and hopefully a higher truth is arrived at. My main thread went from 11 upvotes to -3 in a matter of seconds because I 'kept it real'. Only with one person having the decency to engage me. That's not white knighting? Back up the votes go

[johnny22]

people think your "keeping it real" is total BS, thus the downvotes.

[mholt]

> if you say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Come again? How is astrocyte part of Jessie's problem? People are responsible for their own choices, not the choices of others.

> Never say it's OK.

Although I agree, I don't think astrocyte is saying that harassment is OK. (I assume that's what you're referring to.)

[yoshuaw]

To put it bluntly Astrocyte is telling Jessie to shut up. They aren't saying harassment is OK, it just shouldn't be talked about.

[astrocyte]

Agreed mholt. I never said this harassment was ok. It is not ok and threats can be followed up by police if she really wanted to get even... I am saying that it looks like modern day internet trolling to me. Sign on Xbox live or a modern gaming network .. People are threatening and calling each other vile names all day long. No one cares if you're a female/male or what your ethnicity is. However, if you provide that info, that gives them more ammo to try to mind fuck you ... The aim is to frazzle you w/ extreme comments. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=For+the+lulz This has nothing to do w/ the tech industry. I only voiced that I am getting tired of people, especially now-a-days, going on a bash party against men every time some woman goes through something. The majority of men, regardless of industry, still want to respect and protect women. So, here we are.. A woman gets trolled on the internet and, because she feels she's the center of the world, it's ok for her to incorrectly cast this against males in the tech industry? The majority who are running to her defense and ready to fight each other to the death to prove they are worthy of women? .. Come on, give me a break.. That's what i'm trying to say. And there's deeper issues to address here really. Were "equals" but the gender defending still isn't. Men are still running to the rescue of women at the slightest peep of wrongdoing.. The reverse isn't true.. So, I stated in extended commentary : Contrary to what is being portrayed, men still are stepping all over each other to defend women.

The rampant retraction of the upvotes my initial post is seeing just goes to show how men are willing to stab each other in the throat even when the truth is mentioned just to show a woman that they support them. Those same base tendencies are what steered a bunch of trolls to target Jessie. Same root.. Different leaf.

unbelievable .. Yet another showing though that you get the society/industry you deserve.

\/ To the link below.. keep up the shallow fight.. If you're not comfortable digging into the dirty details of the root, you're just playing whack-a-mole .. Feels good but nothing is achieved and you're likely being manipulated towards some further end-goal that is more harmful (for us all).

[Jweb_Guru]

> The majority who are running to her defense and ready to fight each other to the death to prove they are worthy of women?

Do you honestly think people on HN--where the majority of users are anonymous--are saying things in order to "prove themselves worthy" of women? Like, is that actually something you believe, or just a reflexive thing you say? It's dumb enough that you have to go mansplain 4chan to people (because "for the lulz" is just so complex that I'm sure no one here could figure it out on his or her own), presume to understand how you would react to emails like those Jessie has received when you've never had to, and posit vague conspiracy theories without further explanation ("you're likely being manipulated towards some further end-goal that is more harmful").

Sorry, I realize this isn't exactly the worst post here, but it's frustrating to me because I think your attitude is highly typical of software engineers and is a large part of the reason why shit like this keeps happening. Women do not feel comfortable talking about the things they have to deal with because of posts like this, and it helps normalize harassment.

[yoshuaw]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YesAllWomen

[purp]

It's easy to say that this happens all the time, urge folks to call the cops, let them deal with it, and otherwise don't make a big deal.

So here's the thing: people have been calling the cops; the cops are ill-equipped to deal with this. The inherent structure of police agencies in the U.S. is oriented around physical communities and jurisdictions. More than 5/6 of the sworn officers are below the federal level, thus not easily able to pursue investigations across state lines.[1] but it's easier to push this conveniently to being a problem for the cops than it is to think and choose to act.

You could instead:

* lobby your congressperson and senators to start a federal reporting program. * develop a set of tools that helps narrow the source of these threats, along with a toolkit of self-serve legal forms to demand IP information so victims can submit full evidence to police * support EFF and others who are helping fight this * stop blaming the victim

mholt, you ask how Astrocyte's is part of Jesse's problem. Here's how:

* Astrocyte is assuming that none of this has already been done. * Astrocyte is refusing to do some research and learn about the current state of affairs before minimizing the concerns of people actually experiencing the problem. * Astrocyte is demanding that victims prove they've met Astrocyte's standards before those victims are supposed to raise broad-based concerns publicly. * Astrocyte is writing this off as an isolated thing despite it clearly being more than that. * Astrocyte is doing so publicly while implicitly urging others to do the same.

Astrocyte is choosing to push this problem away and say it's not as big, as wide, as common, or as horrific as it is. That's Astrocyte's choice. People are responsible for their own choices.

Astrocyte is part of the problem.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_Unite...

[tomjen3]

>And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing.

Well of course. Assume that 1/x of men harass and 2/x (ie twice as high a fraction) of women harass. Since this industry has so many more men than women more women will be harassed than men, even if each individual man is less likely to harass.

[obstacle1]

>it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men

No, it isn't obvious, since even in the case of women all we have are lots of really visible anecdotes, not statistics.

It could easily be the case that the number of death threats received by males heavily outweighs the number of death threats received by females.

I know that I don't write reactive blog posts every time some troll threatens to gut me via PM. I wonder if other men disproportionately act like me (compared to women) and thus since we aren't screaming about troll death threats it is assumed we don't receive them.

[nmrm2]

It is not normal or okay to receive death threats after presenting at a professional conference. I've presented several times and have never received a threat. I can't even imagine that happening.

Maybe there are some subcultures where this behavior is something "Everyone" experiences. Certainly that's not the case in mainstream tech.

(As an aside, techies aren't the only people who use the internet, and I'm pretty damn sure that receiving death threats via email after presenting at professional conferences isn't a thing.)

[jessaustin]

...every time some troll threatens to gut me via PM.

Has that ever happened?

[obstacle1]

I'll bet it's happened to anyone who has even slightly stepped into the spotlight of the Internet at large. I've received all kinds of death threats via PM, some extremely 'creative', and I've died precisely zero times. It's one step higher than fiction on the 'I need to worry about this' scale, and every investigative/institutional agency in the world agrees.

[jdub]

"This is not common…"

It's fucking outrageously common. It might not be in your face, but it's an insidious and unrelenting horror to everyone it does affect.

It happens to be particularly bad in the tech world for a bunch of reasons, but women have a shitty time pretty much everywhere. On social media (mansplaining, innuendo, inappropriate messages, stalking, trolling, death threats), on the street (catcalling, abuse, stalking), in their homes (partner abuse)…

[andrewvc]

Why are you so sure that it's not common? I keep reading articles like this and I'm inclined to believe it's more than a coincidence. I dearly wish this woman's experience was an outlier but that is hard to believe.

I truly wish that there was a bright light I could shine over the world of software relieving the clearly disturbed souls of this woman's abusers from whatever pain it is that they act out of. It's extremely sad that my faceless colleagues have so many issues with women, and sadder still that these innocent women have to bear the brunt of it.

[nmrm2]

Telling people to stop complaining about what is clearly criminal harassment because it makes the industry look bad is a pretty disgusting sentiment.

[blintzing]

How is what the author described "one pronounced incident"? One email or IRC message could be a "pronounced incident". What she describes is clearly much worse, and points to a deep problem - not an one-off "incident".