[ourmandave]

From the article:

Wynne said the additional fees, applied in a city already known for high taxes, could be enough to push individuals and companies over the edge. He said that since the taxes will be levied based on Chicago billing addresses, there’s nothing to stop individuals from moving outside city limits or listing billing addresses in other towns. The same is true for businesses.

“Let’s say I sign up for streaming business data in the city but I have offices throughout the country,” Wynne said. “I will definitely make sure my billing goes through a different office.”

[stickfigure]

This doesn't answer the question. Who actually pays the taxes to the city? How does the city come after either the consumer or the provider, especially if the provider is in California/Europe/Russia/etc? I read the article and I don't understand how this works.

[maemilius]

From the article: "But those companies could start collecting taxes sooner to avoid paying the taxes themselves."

This is also how I understand other, similar taxes (like Sales Taxes) work. The business whose service/good would have incurred the tax is also responsible for paying the tax. You're liable for it, regardless of it you collect it from the consumer or not.

[tedunangst]

That does answer the question in the narrow, but more broadly: what are the practical implications for a company with no other presence in Chicago if they don't pay?

[CydeWeys]

They can be sued in a Chicago court, and if they don't defend themselves, a default judgment will be rendered, and then the fees will be collected directly out of the company's bank account, wherever it happens to be.

The United States is a pretty monolithic entity as far as laws and enforcement goes. You don't get away with, e.g., assault by fleeing to a different state; you'll simply be caught by that other state and turned over to the first state to face charges. Similarly, you don't get away with tax evasion any more easily. Now if your company is based in another country, then you might have a better chance.

[tzs]

This sounds like a good argument to use a local bank that only operates in your state, rather than a national bank.

That way, if someone gets an out of state default judgement from a court that does not have personal jurisdiction over you, they will have to bring that judgement to your state and file it with a court in your state in order to get something enforceable in your state. That should give you an opportunity to challenge the validity of the judgement on jurisdiction grounds.

States are required to recognize the judgements of the courts of other states, but only if the court rendering that judgement had jurisdiction.

My Civil Procedure recollection is rather hazy. Suppose Chicago sued, in Chicago courts, a small entertainment company that clearly does not have sufficient contacts with Chicago to meet the Constitutional requirements for giving Chicago courts personal jurisdiction.

I believe that as part of its pleadings, Chicago would have to tell the Court why it believes that Court is the proper place for the suit, and part of that is explaining to the Court how it has personal jurisdiction.

Here's what I do not remember. If the defendant did not appear to dispute that, would the Court simply accept plaintiff's theory of jurisdiction, or does the Court review on its own whether or not it does indeed have jurisdiction?

I have a vague recollection that it is the latter, because the issue of whether or not the court has jurisdiction is not an issue between the parties, but rather determines whether the court even has authority to adjudicate the case, but I could easily be confusing this with something else.

PS: not a lawyer, yadda yadda

[gamblor956]

That way, if someone gets an out of state default judgement from a court that does not have personal jurisdiction over you, they will have to bring that judgement to your state and file it with a court in your state in order to get something enforceable in your state. That should give you an opportunity to challenge the validity of the judgement on jurisdiction grounds.

Judgements of one state's courts are valid in all other states, and can be enforced in other states' courts under the Full Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution, even if the laws in other states are different, unless the judgement is contrary to the public policy of the other state. An example would be trying to enforce an AL non-compete clause in a California court after a non-executive employee has moved from an AL employer to a competitor in CA. Non-competes for non-executives are contrary to public policy in CA on the grounds that they inhibit an employee's rights to earn a living, and so will not be enforced by a CA court.

States are required to recognize the judgements of the courts of other states, but only if the court rendering that judgement had jurisdiction.

No, states are required to enforce the judgements of other state's courts unless the judgement is contrary to the public policy of the state in which enforcement is sought. The defendant is not allowed to challenge the jurisdiction of the original court in an enforcement proceeding--they were supposed to do that in the original trial (or in their appeal to the original ruling). However, if the defendant has challenged jurisdiction (or other issues) in its appeal to the original judgement (in the proper court for making such an appeal), enforcement proceedings (in other states) must be stayed until the appeal is resolved, since the judgment may be overturned.

[em3rgent0rdr]

"sounds like a good argument to use a local bank that only operates in your state, rather than a national bank"

sounds like a good argument to use cryptocurrency and setup your business as a distributed p2p entity with no single head to attack.

[tzs]

Not quite. For you to be liable for it, the entity that wishes to collect from you has to be able to sue you in a court that (1) recognizes that you are liable for it, and (2) has personal jurisdiction over you.

Generally, courts of the region in which you reside have personal jurisdiction over you. So, if you and the collecting entity are in the same state, then that state's courts satisfy #2.

If you don't reside in a region, that region's courts may still have personal jurisdiction over you depending on how your activities relate to that region. There has to be some connection between you and that region, and you have to have purposefully done something to create or benefit from that connection.

As the Supreme Court put it in an important case on jurisdiction (Hanson v. Denckla), "unilateral activity of those who claim some relationship with a nonresident cannot satisfy the requirement of contact with the forum State. The application of that rule will vary with the nature and quality of the defendant's activity, but it is essential in each case that there be some act by which the defendant purposefully avails itself of the privilege of conducting activities within the forum State, thus invoking the benefits and protection of its laws."

So, getting back to the question that was at the start of this branch of the comments, if the small streaming business really has no contacts with the out of state municipality trying to collect taxes, and has not purposefully tried to get customers from that municipality, it is unlikely they would be liable for the taxes of their customers in that municipality. (But check with a lawyer familiar with your state's tax laws--you want to make sure your state has not entered into some sort of reciprocal tax collecting arrangement that does require collecting taxes on transactions between the two).

There's a lot of case law on this. Googling for "Personal Jurisdiction" is a good start if you want more on this. (And while Googling, be sure to take some time to make sure that Hanson v. Denckla is still good law...I haven't checked to see if it has been overturned or superseded).

[gamblor956]

You're confusing separate jurisdictional issues. Personal jurisdiction is relevant to the underlying lawsuit, because it can nullify a judgement.

Personal jurisdiction isn't very relevant to an enforcement proceeding, as presumably it is filed in the state in which the defendant is located. For a business, this generally means any state in which it is incorporated, registered as a foreign corporation, or has facilities such as (but not limited to) offices or factories. If a court doesn't have personal jurisdiction over a defendant in an enforcement proceeding, that simply means the plaintiff needs to file again in the proper venue.

[tzs]

My first paragraph was badly written, so perhaps made it look like I was talking about the enforcement proceeding to collect whatever was won in the underlying lawsuit.

The intent, though, was to talk about the underlying lawsuit, and the effect of a lack of personal jurisdiction of that court over the defendant.

[ourmandave]

You're right, it doesn't. =(

Maybe they can only really collect on U.S. companies.

From the article:

The change adds a 9 percent tax to Chicago residents’ subscriptions to streaming services such as Netflix and the paid version of Spotify.