[petea]

I find mainstream hostility towards skilled workers really interesting because if you had replaced this group of people with any other group of people like women or other ethnic minorities, you can really start to see how outright hostile people are.

If you actually take the maxim of fairness and equality seriously, skilled foreign workers are by far the most unfairly discriminated group of people. Much more than blacks and women who are supposedly discriminated against in tech. Unlike women and blacks, skilled foreign workers actually have the government with arbitrary set of standards to determine who can work and who can't.

Another part of the immigration story that's fascinating is illegal immigrant stories are almost always come with some sob story to make readers feel empathic towards them. Such stories are almost never told with skilled immigrants.

[oh_sigh]

I don't think anyone is hostile towards the workers themselves. It seems more like they are hostile towards disney and the in-sourcing firm which pulled this off. The entire point of H-1B visas is to fill positions when Americans can't be found to do the work. How they can pull off laying off an entire department and replacing them with H-1Bs is very confusing to me. I'd love to hear an explanation for it. What loophole are they using?

[sanderjd]

I imagine it is the classic loophole of "ask forgiveness rather than permission", which when talking about corporations becomes "take calculated risks based on the likelihood of having a suit brought against you, the probability you would lose such a suit, and the cost if you do". For a big company like Disney, mistreating a department of IT workers is very unlikely to be costly.

On the other hand, it does seem like there should be a regulatory body taking action on this sort of abuse, and I'm curious if anyone knows more about that.

[awinder]

"skilled foreign workers are by far the most unfairly discriminated group of people"

I'm sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this. The State has an economic interest in maintaining high(er) levels of employment among citizens, because employed citizens stimulate the economy, while providing financing for public programs, and while not claiming benefits like unemployment. There's a net economic benefit (not to mention a foundational argument for the role of government) in protecting the employment of a country's own citizenry, so it's not like this is done capriciously.

(Also, fun time to point out: Many other countries have the same exact qualifications that protect jobs from citizens being outsourced to other countries. Including India, fittingly.)

Now, contrast that with the idea that a certain segment of the population is systemically disadvantaged based on race, income bracket, or gender. And for the minority of those disadvantaged who actually achieve qualifications that make them a great fit for a job, they still face discrimination in the form of hiring discrimination and wage discrimination. This is all done not based on merit, or as a matter of economic policy by a government, but rather: whether someone happened to be born a certain color or sex.

Really? There's really even a second of argument to be made about which of these scenarios is more insidious and unfair?

EDIT: Also, SERIOUS dog-whistle warning on use of the word "supposedly" to refer to discrimination against women and other minorities.

[misterbee]

Your whole argument hinges on an assumption that national borders are somehow relevant in determining which workers are entitled to jobs. You could recast the same argument in terms of races, and it holds up equally well -- reserving jobs for whites protects the employments of a country's own citizenry, black people don't deserve the rights of citizens, women should stay home and not interfere in business, yadda yadda.

[jarman]

>could recast the same argument in terms of races

No you cannot

> black people don't deserve the rights of citizens

You are not recasting argument. You just add racism on top of it, then claim original argument to be racist

>women should stay home

And how does that follow from protecting citizenry employment?

[ebbv]

You're being ridiculous. People are upset about the treatment of the existing workers, and angry at the management. Nobody's blaming the new incoming workers.

As far as comparing it to replacing people with women or other ethnic minorities; people did complain loudly about Mexicans "taking our jobs" but that has died down in recent years because people have realized how stupid it is to blame the workers.

Let's not muddy the issue with unwarranted claims of bigotry. The problem in this story is the management at Disney mistreating their existing (now former) employees.

[kevin_thibedeau]

The reality is that often times these foreign workers aren't actually "skilled". They're fresh IIT grads who may be intelligent but haven't enough professional experience to avoid costly problems and delays. The suits only care about next quarter's numbers though.

This isn't just classic bigotry recast. The maxim of fairness doesn't extend across political boundaries where cheap foreign labor can siphon money across different economic spheres leaving domestic workers wanting for a job. Actually the whole reason why people object is that isn't fair to have to compete against someone in Bangalore. Displaced workers can't just choose to move to a cheaper country for work.

> Such stories are almost never told with skilled immigrants.

Because the H1B gravy train means they don't have to sneak into the country.

[geebee]

Are they IIT grads? I kind of doubt it, but I don't know for sure.

[hga]

Per Wikipedia, "As of 2008, the alumni of IIT number more than 170,000." I couldn't find any numbers for total class sizes, but I don't think there are hardly enough compared to the outstanding H1-B visas in the US (and then there's e.g. L1 visas).

And as I understand it, more IIT graduates go into programming from degrees in e.g. mechanical and civil? engineering than those who get CS degrees, because that's where the money is.

[supercanuck]

I think we would all rather see them get green cards instead of visas.

If they had green cards, than they would be free to find better paying jobs or switch jobs. Instead, the H1-B is essentially shackles that ensures an H1-B stays put while they apply for a Green Card. Otherwise they go back to India, that is a BIG disincentive to leave the employer voluntarily ESPECIALLY since they are here by exploiting a loophole as it is.

[jodah]

> I find mainstream hostility towards skilled workers really interesting because if you had replaced this group of people with any other group of people like women or other ethnic minorities, you can really start to see how outright hostile people are.

It's not just that, if the same practices were used in other industries that are traditionally protected (doctors, nurses, teachers, lawyers, accountants, etc) or unionized, all hell would break loose. But nobody seems too bothered that this happens to tech workers.

[panzagl]

Minorities and women are a protected class under US law- their lower wages are due to previous conditions in the US that the citizens of that country have decided to remedy.

Discrimination against skilled foreign workers is not illegal- in fact laws like H1-B require a certain amount of discrimination.

To compare the situation of H1-Bs to women or blacks or even illegal immigration is at best being willfully ignorant of US history and custom. Get back to me when H1-Bs are forced to pick cotton for a couple generations.

[ionforce]

Isn't their being skilled at all in question?

[petea]

I think so. The fact that skilled immigrants actually are skilled probably helps the notion that skilled immigrants don't need help and doesn't deserve any sympathy.

On the other hand, skilled immigrants often seem completely oblivious to the fact that they are completely being discriminated against. Just like blacks who thinks they are being mistreated simply because of their skin color at birth, and women to their gender at birth, skilled immigrants can perfectly adopt their narrative of mistreatment due to birth location. And yet, they don't. They simply take the world for what it is, and try to win it based on merits. Maybe it's because skilled workers go beyond race and gender, they themselves have a hard time identifying themselves with each others.

[nostrebored]

This is bullshit. I've heard my international student and immigrant friends play this card very frequently. This is especially obvious when they're talking in a self deprecating way. And you know what? They might not be wrong, and that's okay.

The irony of what you're saying should also not be lost on you. You're claiming that you're discriminated against due to your status as a skilled-immigrant worker, but that nobody in your situation would claim this.

Also it seems like you think that women and African-Americans don't face discrimination in tech? I really have a hard time imagining people making this claim, especially with statistics like: Men are employed in STEM occupations at about twice the rate of women with the same qualifications. [1] The number of women graduating with computer science degrees has halved in the last 30 years. [2] Women are treated as if they don't belong in the field, through sexism or dismissal. [3] How many women do you see stuck in UI Dev? Have you talked to them? Guess what -- a lot of them hate UI but get stuck in the 'girly' part of CS, especially at the entry level. My fiancee, who graduated with me from a top 10 university with an emphasis in Algorithms and Modeling is now doing web UI... Well payed web UI, but still, definitely not the right fit for her skill set.

My African American friends in tech faced the same sort of discrimination -- the cultural barrier to entry we have in the tech field is pretty bonkers.

1. https://fortunedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/acs-24.pdf 2. http://readwrite.com/2014/09/02/women-in-computer-science-wh... 3. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/women-and-information-technol...

[davesque]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that foreign tech workers are at any more of a disadvantage. Skilled foreign workers can eventually move back to India and stretch their dollar way further than it would go in the US. Does the average American tech worker have this option?

[jtreminio]

> Another part of the immigration story that's fascinating is illegal immigrant stories are almost always come with some sob story to make readers feel empathic towards them.

Not sure I would characterize mine, and millions of others' stories as "sob stories". Economical and safety reasons for moving away from place of origin are realities, not short stories for your soul.

[s73v3r]

It's because skilled immigrants are being brought over specifically to make large companies richer. That's it. There is no other reason. In 95% of cases, there are plenty of people here that can do the job.