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by vitobcn 4030 days ago
> "Europe is not a single entity and never will be."

Having lived in several European countries myself (Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands, Switzerland) I can only agree with the first part of the statement. It is not like California and Kansas are very similar either, yet they are part of the same country.

To me the current issue is not the people but politics, and the desire of sovereign countries not to relinquish power to a supranational entity. This is a process that takes time (and typically requires a catalyzer).

Whether the union will succeed or not, time will tell, but in the last 15 years Europe has clearly been converging (Schengen and currency being important aspects, to which I would add Erasmus programs and low-cost flights).

It is not there yet, and with the financial crisis from the last few years, the situation is more difficult at the moment; however, in my opinion if Europe wants to play a relevant geopolitical role vs the US, China, Russia, etc. it will be forced to step up its union efforts.

1 comments

New York, Kansas and California have more in common from the point of view of the citizens than the countries that you've lived in. You only need to look at how the EU elections are managed versus how the elections for the US Presidency and congress are seen by the US citizens.

The sovereign 'countries' are imaginary constructs made real by physical, cultural and psychological factors, 'power' is such a psychological factor and I think it is far less of an item absent 'nationalism' and we're seeing a very strong resurgence of this in Europe right now. There isn't a country that does not have a far-right or far-left ultra nationalist political party that manages to get a substantial part of the vote. If anything happened at all during the last decade then it is that Europe's window for unity is slowly closing and that in some parts we're already regressing.

This gets expressed in an 'us versus them' mentality not seen since the 80's, the latest nice example of that is Germany deciding to start levying toll on foreigners for the use of the German roads. (Which given the location of Germany is for many people the equivalent of an in-escapable tax.)

So if you feel the Union is converging then that's great, I'm seeing the opposite, more and more nationalist sentiments, Greece possibly departing the Euro and maybe even departing the EU, the UK and possibly others no longer being a part of the union and more and more limitations placed on the original 'free travel of goods and people' mandate that enabled a lot of the EU to get closer.

So, no, it's not there yet and the way things are going we're not ever going to get there either.

The EU did a number of things very wrong, they tried to force the issue on a number of occasions and in fact succeeded in several of those but while they won those particular battles they lost the war in that the 'locals' are not Europe minded because they see downsides to it as well. And that's fine, but ramming unification down their throats definitely is one of the reasons all these backlashes found ground to sprout in and take hold.

Wilders, Le-Pen, the UK euro-skeptics, Greek nationalists and so on all have one thing in common: they use the anti-EU sentiment as their main driving force (and in the case of Wilders, also anti-Islam, but then again, he's simply a nutcase that has found some fear buttons that he can push, like all the other demagogues in history, which doesn't make him any less dangerous).

> New York, Kansas and California have more in common from the point of view of the citizens than the countries that you've lived in.

We have to keep in mind they were not always like this. Willingness to be part of a larger whole is key. EU members are not keen and politicians are playing divide and conquer with the EU.

The fear buttons they play are extraordinarily dangerous.

>Wilders, Le-Pen, the UK euro-skeptics, Greek nationalists and so on all have one thing in common.

Two things actually. A very significant share of euro-skeptics, far right parties and movements are funded by Moscow. When Putin's and his cronies regime falls, European political landscape might change in a very unpredictable way.

And assuming this is true, what makes you think Putin's regime will fall before Greece or UK or Portugal? Greece is on the very edge of the cliff. If Greece leaves the Euro/EU, it isn't going to be as 'contained' as european leaders are making it to be, since Portugal will probably be targeted next, and while on paper seems Portugal is doing better, it isn't really (Gov. is doing everything it can to show Portugal doing well, unf. at a GREAT weight for the populace. Just heard on the news this weekend, the food bank is doing a campaign to feed about 400.000 people that are malnourished. This is around 4% of the population. I know there are many other countries that have more poor people, but as in Greece, when you see your gov. paying money to ECB/IMF and your people is starving, at one point they will break (as they did when they elected Syriza)

As for the UK, I can't really say. I think the referendum in 2017 will end with a "stay" vote, but it will depend a lot on Greece's situation and how France/Germany deal with the UK issues regarding the EU in 2016.

Yeah, Moscow would certainly make sure that their funding is easily discovered and attributed.

For example, Le Pen's Front National got EUR 40M loan[0]. Also Greece’s Golden Dawn party, Belgium’s Vlaams Belang, Italy’s Northern League, Hungary’s Jobbik and the Freedom Party of Austria.[1]

An overview from The Guardian[2]

[0]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/40m-of-russia...

[1]http://www.theweek.co.uk/europe/61498/russia-funds-french-na...

[2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/russian-resurge...

So nothing about UK parties?
Ukip has been cosy with Moscow[0] but I am unaware about any reliable funding stories.

[0]http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/31/nigel-farage...