[api]

This is brilliant. I wish I had time to write more. A few points.

The time tested old school way to avoid this problem is to limit openness and impose internal structure. The long lasting subcultures of old, namely the ancient mystery schools and the fraternal orders that flourished from the Renaissance until roughly the post-WWII era, were initiatory orders with oaths, degrees, and governing bodies. Sometimes they were secret as well, or at least secretive. Most historians seem to say that this was to avoid political persecution, and that's undoubtedly true, but it was also perhaps a way to avoid the dumbing down and dissipation described here.

I'd adjust the author's dates. It's not 1975 until 2000. It's more accurately roughly 1950 until 2000. The subculture was the engine of cultural creation in the postwar era. It gave us rock, psychedelia, hippies, punks, disco, hip hop, hacker culture, goths, and ravers, and all the immense cultural, musical, technical, and artistic expressions that went with.

My personal sense is that rave was the last postwar subculture. I was there and watched it go through precisely what this author describes. There does not seem to have been another.

I don't think it's just a loss of faith. I personally blame the Internet a bit, especially social media. It's no longer possible for a subculture to stay underground long enough to build up any energy. The entire life cycle now occurs before the first song is over.

Who knows... Maybe we need another occult revival. I'll wear a funny hat and take a blood oath of secrecy if I get to hear really interesting new music that doesn't suck. Sign me up.

Finally, this quote stuck with me.

"A slogan of Rao’s may point the way: Be slightly evil. Or: geeks need to learn and use some of the sociopaths’ tricks. Then geeks can capture more of the value they create (and get better at ejecting true sociopaths)."

That's part of what I like about HN. To the extent that it focuses on helping hackers learn how to "operate" in the business world, it seems like it's helping teach some number of creators how to be just a little bit evil.

[meesterdude]

> The time tested old school way to avoid this problem is to limit openness and impose internal structure. The long lasting subcultures of old, namely the ancient mystery schools and the fraternal orders that flourished from the Renaissance until roughly the post-WWII era, were initiatory orders with oaths, degrees, and governing bodies.

A thoughtful and interesting observation. I wonder how much truth there is to it. It also makes me wonder if "flat structure" companies face any kind of similar problems.

[api]

I have heard that. Open organizations with no inner or outer boundaries tend to become pathocracies -- ruled by psychopaths and other pathological abusive personality types. Hierarchy can facilitate abuse, but it can also be a tool for limiting and mitigating abuse. In its formal absence, abusers are free to assert it using deception and intimidation.

[nl]

I agree with most of your points.

My personal sense is that rave was the last postwar subculture

I'm unconvinced. I think that there have been numerous post-rave subcultures, but the time difference between "cool" and "mainstream" is shrinking.

Cosplay, trail-running and "start-ups" are three subcultures that jump out at me as things that have gone through this (I'm not overly familiar with cosplay, but it seems to me that it has gone from nothing to something people make money from).

Maybe you are thinking of just music though. Dubstep had it's 6 months of cool before making mainstream, maybe?

[gue5t]

I upvoted this post before reading the last paragraph. Could someone give it a compensatory downvote and then reply to avoid double-dipping? Thanks.