[e12e]

You already have a lot of good answers, here's some more:

C and C++ really isn't the same thing. Certainly not "modern" C++. Unless you know of any C++ projects/frameworks/libraries you really want to use/contribute to -- I don't think I would recommend looking to hard at C++. It certainly isn't a dead language, and has many uses -- but at least outside of the gaming industry, I can't think of any segment were C++ would be the preferred language -- except when dealing with legacy code (which of course, realistically is the biggest segment...). Perhaps C++ paired with qt for GUI programming.

But even for games, you don't need C++ -- if you are free to start from scratch anything will work.

> is Rust a decent place for me to learn lower-level concepts

Which lower level concepts?

C maps quite neatly to assembler -- but to appreciate that I'd recommend learning a bit of assembler. amd64 with nasm/intel syntax is rather pleasant[1]. It'll let you see what calling conventions/ffi, data layout and the difference between c-strings and pascal strings are all about.

If you take a canonical hello-world from C, C++ and rust and look at the generated assembly -- rust and c++ will be (IMNHO) closer to each other than to C. The assembler generated by the c-compiler will be straight forward, and quite readable -- while both C++ and rust will look a little more convoluted. (This is also true for Nim, which compiles to C -- but needs it's own runtime. I've not looked too hard at code generated by go -- but given the runtime, I think that assembly would also be much more difficult to make heads and tails of, than something output by a C compiler).

If your goal is more to learn a low-overhead compiled language, I would recommend rust. If your goal is to find a compiled language that is easy to integrate with others, I think I would recommend C (for now) -- and a bit of basic assembler.

I think after learning a bit of assembler and C -- one also gets a better appreciation for why Pascal was so popular for a while.

With any luck, and more work -- hopefully rust will be able to sneak into quite a few of Cs use-cases, like writing libraries for easy consuption by python/ruby/etc. But I don't think rust is quite at a place where it makes sense to reccomend it for that use-case to a novice (low-level) programmer. I'd love to be wrong about that.

[1] Unfortunately, I don't really know of any good introductions to amd64 assembly. There are a couple of great tutorials for 32bit/x86 -- but a lot of things are simpler in our amd64 world. While it might be good to know how to write bootloaders (16bit) and 32bit code -- I'd love for there to be a simple tutorial focused on just amd64.

I like this asm tutorial (unfortunately for 32-bit):

http://www.drpaulcarter.com/pcasm/

And "HLA" is another great resource for 32-bit assembler:

http://www.plantation-productions.com/Webster/www.artofasm.c...

Sadly, neither have been ported/updated to a version with a focus on amd64 only.

Intel has an ok overview article focused on 64-bit:

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/introduction-to-x6...

[whonut]

Thanks for this. All good info.

> Which lower level concepts?

I may be misusing the terminology but I had in mind the sorts of things Python does for you, like memory management.

> If your goal is more to learn a low-overhead compiled language, I would recommend rust.

Now that you mention it, this is probably the main thing I want. Integration with Python would be nice though and, as mentioned in a previous comment, I have to learn C for university soon anyway.

[e12e]

Might add that Rust has a very new blend of concepts that are "in your face" -- and arguably a very "modern" selection of concepts. I'm not well versed in neither C, C++ or Rust (or Haskell/ML) -- but this old article by Stroustrup (creator of C++) still makes some interesting points vis-a-vis C:

"Learning Standard C++ as a New Language" http://www.stroustrup.com/new_learning.pdf

Rust has great documentation that's rapidly improving, but the selection of "syntactic tools" are somewhat eclectic -- yet I think one could probably be a better C programmer by first learning Rust (just as one might be a better C programmer by first learning Pascal and/or Ada) -- precisely because Rust has gathered up what seems to me to be a very useful subset of "things" (borrow/box, strong typing, safe/unsafe etc) -- that can be useful to apply to any kind of programming.

And just as with C++, Rust will give you somewhat more complex solutions (if you look at the generated machine code) than naive C code -- but as it turns out -- the naive C code is probably incorrect, anyway!

[steveklabnik]

> But I don't think rust is quite at a place where it makes sense to reccomend it for that use-case to a novice (low-level) programmer. I'd love to be wrong about that.

Can you expand on why that is, maybe?

[e12e]

Well, right now -- as a novice -- I could take a look at:

http://cffi.readthedocs.org/en/latest/overview.html#simple-e...

And, under IPython (python3) on Windows (I already had ms visual studio installed):

   import pip
   pip.main("install cffi".split())
   > (...)
   > Successfully installed cffi-1.0.3 pycparser-2.13
   from cffi import FFI
   ffi = FFI()

   ffi.cdef("""int printf(const char *format, ...);
   """)
   C = ffi.dlopen(None)
   arg = ffi.new("char[]", b"world")
   C.printf(b"Hi there, %s!\n", arg)
   > Hi there, world!
   > 17

So a lot of this is tooling, integration and documentation.

If one might whip up something similar for rust that works cross platform, and results in code that is reasonably easy to distribute via pypi (and similar for gems for ruby etc) -- that'd be great.

So, I meant that for a novice, that wants to, say write a compiled extension/wrapper for python/ruby whatever -- a bit of C and the standard docs go a long way now.

Obviously there's a lot of work to get to the point of C (it's been ubiquitous for a while...) -- but if some parts could be made similarly accessible; interfacing with rustc, if rustc is in path/installed "properly", some magic on the host-language side etc -- that would be very good, I think.

[steveklabnik]

Cool, thanks for elaborating :) I put the basics into our docs: http://doc.rust-lang.org/book/rust-inside-other-languages.ht... , but it is just the very basics.

[e12e]

This great! Looks like there's still a bit of a gap wrt passing arguments; like the snippet above does. After skimming the chapter on ffi as well, there appears to be the need for a bit of experimentation (for me/a novice) to get that to work (eg: passing in a string, getting it back reversed, or as a list/array of unique characters/glyps etc).

I'll have a look when I find the time - but this is a great start!

[steveklabnik]

Awesome :)

Yeah, things like "what do I do about more complex types" needs tons of more docs in general. We will get there. I'm also pretty convinced that a dedicated individual could create pretty awesome automatic binding generators for any language, especially since bindgen works pretty well for C... but we'll see how it shakes out.

Don't hesitate to email me or post in the forums if you play around with this and get stuck :)