Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by ploxiln 4062 days ago
I'm a US citizen who is very unhappy about "civil forfeiture", about mass surveillance, etc. But the reality is that most people in the US are not directly affected. I haven't really been affected, and I don't personally know anyone who has been. (yeah yeah it helps that I'm white.) Most US citizens who are aware of these things, like me, are very unhappy about them. But most people are not really aware, and one reason for that is they haven't been personally affected.

Things in the US are not nearly as bad as in third world countries. They're bad, they're serious, but third world (or whatever you want to call Russia and China) problems are really in a league of their own. Dubai is in a different league than NYC / SF.

In the US, you can talk about it, you can get a lawyer, you can have newspaper articles written. Many third world countries - nope. There may be a couple of bloggers but they tend to get arrested.

Again, I'm not saying these things in the US are OK. I'm just saying it's unrealistic to say Manhattan is like Dubai, or NSA is like Chinese internet monitors/hackers. Really - not even close.

4 comments

> In the US, you can talk about it, you can get a lawyer, you can have newspaper articles written.

And is this helping Joseph Rivers, a victim of shameless organised theft and institutional racism?

The "most people are unaffected" argument, which gets trotted out a lot, has a strong reek of the Martin Niemøller idea: ( http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392 )

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Speak out, god damn it, if you have an ounce of freedom left in your blood! How can you sit idly by and make excuses and diminish the problem while your fellow man is being trampled by a ruling class of armoured thugs and liars? Is this what America was built on? That's not what you claim in your movies.

If you're making excuses for how this sort of despicable crap is "not that big a problem", you need to take a good, long look in the mirror and realise that you're currently part of the problem.

Every time an innocent has his rights trampled in this way, it is all of humanity that suffers. I am incensed on this person's behalf, and shocked and disappointed that this person's compatriots take it so lightly.

> Is this what America was built on?

I'm pretty sure it was.

A vicious racist killer is proudly displayed on our $20 bill, after all...
In all seriousness, what can I actually do. Nothing I've done in the past has felt like it moved the needle at all.

- Calling my local representative (Someone on the other end of the line thanks me and then politely dismisses me saying they'll pass it along). - Trying to inform friends and family (They don't really care for many of the reasons stated above)

I think apathetic is a good descriptor for my current state of mind around things like this. Any effort I've put into large scale change in the past has felt like spinning my wheels and generally decreased my overall happiness due to general frustration. Letting go of caring about politics was a major happiness/satisfaction increase in my generall well-being.

If you feel like you can't effect change where you are (a fair conclusion), I would suggest at the very least looking into moving to another country which is more representative of your values.

Yes, it seems like giving up. But then over time the more smart, educated, likely wealthy people leave the US and take residence somewhere less objectionable, the less economically competitive the US will be. Eventually it will decline.

At the very least, you'll know that you weren't one of the people contributing to sustaining this system. It might seem like a drop in the ocean, but, as the conclusion of Cloud Atlas puts it, what is the ocean but a multitude of drops?

Doxx the narcs. Track by their wifi radios in their smartphones.
In the US... you can get a lawyer

There are lawyers in this thread that claim cases where civil forfeiture is done to prevent the individual getting a lawyer.

And there are judges who can order some of those forfeitures released/returned so that the individual can get a lawyer.

Of course this probably doesn't happen in reality...

>> In the US, you can talk about it, you can get a lawyer

The problem is, you must be able to afford a lawyer. If the legal process of defending oneself is only available to the rich, then it largely does no exist for the general population.

More people rot in American jails than any other country.

America admits to torture and does nothing.

America has a kill list that only the executive presides over and keeps secret.

We've killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the last decade and displaced millions.

And yet here is a presumptuous America ready to claim moral superiority over Russians and Chinese. A horrific display of Orwellian doublethink.

China would have more prisoners if it didn't execute them all.

You can't see online news articles negative of Chinese leadership, in China, they're taken down or blocked for the entire country.

This is not "doublethink", this is just being realistic. China and Russian are, objectively, way way worse. If you don't see that, you've lost touch with reality.

Any citations for number of people China executes per year?

You simply state China and Russia are far worse but present no evidence.

America has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians over the last 12 years.

America holds people in indefinite prison without trial and even admits that they are innocent but continues to lock them away.

We torture people. We have secret kill lists. Our police rob citizens without punishment. Our politicians openly flaunt the law and go unpunished, as do bankers and large corporations.

Anything to support your view beyond mere assertion and blind allegiance?

It's well known.

"in 2008, 2009, and 2010, the Dui Hua Foundation estimated that 5,000 people were executed each year in China – far more than all other nations combined.[2] [1][3] [4] However, the estimated number of executions fell to 2,400 in 2013.[5] The precise number of executions is regarded as a state secret.[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China

The US executed 40 - 50 people per year in those years. The US information is publicly available, of course.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year

Even at the higher rate of 5000 per year China would need 100 years of executions to bridge the gap with us prison population http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-popula...

This does not include the hundreds of thousands of Muslim civilians the US has killed in the 21st century.