[ahoge]

With optionally typed languages like Dart and TypeScript, you only have to add types to things like fields and functions/methods to get all the tooling benefits. Type inference takes care of the rest.

Secondly, you should be able to auto-complete pretty much everything.

[hughw]

"you should be able to auto-complete pretty much everything"

Requires tooling.

[discreteevent]

Eh.. grep is also a tool? Every function you write is a tool. The whole industry is built on tools and tools that make tools..

[hughw]

Sure. But programming languages whose claim to utility lies in an IDE -- they aren't necessarily bad, but it's not a programming language you're selling me, it's a whole environment: MS Visual Studio or whatever. A complex language requires lots of tooling like that, and a simple language doesn't. I have never missed autocompletion in Javascript, but I cannot function without IDE support in Scala. We're off the topic of OO in Javascript, but I wanted to make the point that I don't automatically consider that "IDEs can autocomplete" is a positive feature -- if you need autocomplete, that's a problem.

[ahoge]

> but it's not a programming language you're selling me, it's a whole environment

Well, yes, because programming languages don't exist in a vacuum. The currently available libraries, tools, and documentation are very important if you decide to actually do something with that language.

> I have never missed autocompletion in Javascript

A moment ago, you complained about having to press a few more keys for the type annotations.

> I wanted to make the point that I don't automatically consider that "IDEs can autocomplete" is a positive feature

That there are IDEs which let you auto-complete everything is a positive feature.

Being toolable doesn't mean that those tools exist. If those tools exist, you can make use of them if you decide to use this language. This is a good thing.

By the way, JavaScript doesn't lack good tooling because it doesn't need good tooling. It's the way it is, because offering good tooling for JavaScript is really difficult. ES6's modules and classes will help with that though. The tools will make good use of this statically available information.

[hughw]

>> I have never missed autocompletion in Javascript

>A moment ago, you complained about having to press a few more keys for the type annotations."

For Typescript, I dislike the extra typing. I have never missed autocompletion in Javascript. Where is the contradiction?

[ahoge]

One would think that 20 additional characters per function don't really matter if you can save 100 keystrokes.

Compared to JavaScript, I have to press fewer keys when I write Dart. (This would be also true without shorthands like method cascades.)

[hackinthebochs]

What's with this luddite mentality that pervades some areas of software? This meme that epitomizes terminal-based, mouseless, IDE-less development is just seriously absurd. We of all people should embrace modern tools that make development more productive. Tooling is the future, we should be pushing the envelope not romanticizing the past.

[hughw]

As I explained, requiring an IDE to make effective use of a language is a marker for a complex language. The system as a whole may be an effective way to build programs for some people, but it's now more than a language. The logical extreme is visual programming which reappears every few years. After a while, most people rediscover that languages articulate concepts better than visual metaphors. IDEs aren't as extreme, but sometimes don't merely enhance editing the language, but become almost a required part of the language. I am sure Martin Odersky can write Scala programs in Notepad, but I myself cannot write a Scala program without mouse hovers explaining the inferred type of my variable. It's an effective total programming system, but as a pure language, it's so complex I can only program it in a certain environment.

[hackinthebochs]

But why is environment flexibility a requirement? When are you genuinely constrained to use, say, only a terminal? I can think of no situation where this is true by necessity (rather than artificial constraint).

[hughw]

I do appreciate the type inference.