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by lotsofmangos 4060 days ago
I half agree with you. I do think that the language used to describe religious viewpoints includes off the cuff insults far too often. The word benighted was unnecessary in that sentence and does detract from the article. I don't think it was egregious enough to demand the article not be posted, but I do agree that it is a form of philosophical point scoring that serves neither the article, nor the wider discussion.

The first person to derive the Hubble constant and one of the main developers of big-bang theory was Georges LemaƮtre, a devout Catholic who would later become president of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, who described the idea as "the Cosmic Egg, exploding at the moment of the creation", though he didn't like the Pope relying on it in proclamations. I think it would be fair to call him a creationist.

Also, Hoyle, who was not a creationist, coined the term 'Big-Bang' to take the piss out of LemaƮtre's idea and promote the steady-state theory, which he preferred. Hoyle however believed that a god was guiding the fine tuning of the constants to help the evolution of life, so was effectively a proponent of intelligent design, while not being a creationist. Weirdly, the two ideas do not have to go together.

I am not saying this from the article offending myself in any way, I am what most people would think of as strongly athiest, though personally I have come to dislike the label. I just think it is a lazy form of signaling that detracts from the argument and also demonstrates an ignorance of the wide variety of religious and philosophical viewpoints held by those throughout the scientific community.

1 comments

Ignoring the argument in order to preach "nice makes right" also detracts from the argument...
I am not sure that describing creationists to be in a state of pitiful or contemptible intellectual or moral ignorance is anything to do with the argument presented by the article.

Also, I was not addressing the article, I was addressing the comment of pcunite and their problem with the language used in one particular sentence, which is something I partly agree with and is nothing whatsoever to do with the accuracy of the article itself.

If someone tries to teach children maths by telling them "listen up idiots, two plus two is four", and I pick them up for their use of language, it has no real bearing on my view of the usefulness of learning addition.

But rhetoric is useful to teaching, and especially to writing popular articles. (I even learned what 'benighted' means today.)

Maybe it's not that useful to creationists. Almost anybody else would be able to see past it and get some real content. I don't think most creationists would be bothered to do that either way.

Rhetoric is a two way street. It can be just as damaging as it can be beneficial.

Also, the observation that almost anyone other than a creationist would be able to get past a line that specifically insults creationists, is not that surprising.

edit - It is a great article, that for the most part deals with a very complex subject really well. I am just saying that the philosophical point scoring in the introduction added nothing to it and has then had a damaging effect on the discussion of it here, where that sentence has triggered the largest thread, to the detriment of the rest of the actual content.

If creationists are supposed to just get over being insulted, presumably atheists can also get over a single comment by a creationist asking not to be.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I'm perfectly content to live in a world where people experience an intellectual and social disadvantage for believing in nonsense.
"I'm perfectly content to live in a world where people experience an intellectual and social disadvantage for believing in nonsense."

I truly believe that you'll get to experience that world someday. However, you needn't wait. There are several countries today that kill and shame those who don't think like them. Go try one of them and report your success.

Hang on.

You have admitted that you didn't even know the meaning of the sentence that you have been defending until I posted the meaning of the word 'benighted', while criticizing those who were upset by it for holding faith based positions?

Sorry, but that is hilarious.

(edited slightly for clarity)

While it would certainly be wrong to call children idiots when teaching them basic arithmetic I'm not convinced it's entirely out of place when you're explaining the same thing to grown adults.
Except that "[coherent-under-consequential-reflection] nice makes right" is a fairly accurate description of moral affairs, if not of epistemology.
I disagree vehemently.
Ok. Could you please disagree in detail?
I was trying to think of a way to do so without writing several thousand words on the subject. But basically, it comes down to this:

Conflict avoidance is not conflict resolution.