[xnull6guest]

I agree we shouldn't get into a huff about what isn't reality - in fact I called for real data.

I don't personally see much of a non-legal distinction between geolocations.

We probably should have a little outrage at torture and rendition programs, though we should probably have some realism too.

[maxerickson]

Just some realism? What harm is done by asking people to accurately describe the program?

If OP had bothered to understand the actual nature of the rendition programs and understand why the legal distinction matters, they would have an answer to their question about no one being in jail. That is, under current US law, it is not illegal for the CIA to kidnap people in other countries.

So the interesting discussion, the one about whether the US should be engaging in these activities (it should not), ends up getting overshadowed by the stupid sideshow about accuracy. But pushing back on the inaccuracy is necessary, imagine if we had to respectfully discuss the coming Martian invasion every time someone managed to stick that into the top comment in a thread.

[xnull6guest]

This appeals to me, but I think at this point we are preaching to ourselves.

Re: realism. Some outrage is a nice way to temper realism with civility. If we temper it instead with only a pragmatic calculus or some Randian or Social Darwinism there's a chance we can delude ourselves into a fascism, jingoism or militarism. I prefer to play tit-for-tat - lead with the pillow, reply to sticks with hammers. But if in pursuit of the pragmatic we abandon the ideals, we're going to optimize the 'wrong' objective. In other words - the outrage is a way to call for the US to recognize inalienable rights (which mean that no nationality, nor any government, gives them to you), to pursue fair trails, and to be accountable for mistakes, and to perform justice through a court system where it can be seen for the good thing it is. It is not outrage for outrage's sake.

[maxerickson]

I think it is a fine thing to be outraged about the US kidnapping people, it is pretty outrageous. I've used "kidnap" repeatedly to hint at that, rather than sticking to "extraordinary rendition".

I think it is really stupid to be outraged that the CIA is kidnapping people off of the street in the US, because they are not doing that.

I feel like I am repeating myself, but from what I can tell from your reply here, you don't seem to see what I am getting at.

[xnull6guest]

No, I don't think I am.

The CIA definitely has taken people from the US - even innocent ones - not necessarily 'from the streets'. It has also targeted and killed US citizens without trials.

I think it is being informed by these facts along with similar feelings towards the CIA's 'kidnapping' and 'manslaughtering' of innocent non-citizens, that is repugnant to those with the palate for more civil tone and direction of real defense and intelligence objectives.