[btilly]

I am old enough to remember when assembly programmers used to use that complaint as a reason not to program in C. And when C programmers would use that complaint as a reason not to program with templates in C++. And when C++ programmers used that complaint as a reason not to program in languages with garbage collection.

The truth is that no matter what level you program at, you are depending on a long toolchain that you don't understand the details of. You are explicitly aware of not understanding autogenerated stuff at your level. But are ignoring how little you understand of what is underneath the level you are used to programming at.

Get used to it. A few years back I remember an article that started by diving into what actually happens between pressing a key on the keyboard and a letter appearing on the screen. I wish I could find it for you. It was a long article. And repeatedly got into too much detail, then narrowed down the scope and got into more detail. Over and over again.

You don't actually understand how your computer or code works. Instead you create a useful working model and proceed with that. Said working models can include both lower levels than your usual, or you can build up higher levels. Get used to it, take advantage of good tools, and you will accomplish more. The alternative is to get stuck in what you know, refuse to go outside of that boundary, and be less productive. The choice is yours.

[rprospero]

I interpreted the comment a bit more generously. The admonition wasn't to avoid using higher level tools, but not to try editing the low level output of a high level tool. I prefer writing in C to writing in assembler, but I would never want to modify the assembler produced by a compiler. Similarly, I prefer scheme to C, but I would prefer handwritten C to editing the output of the Chicken-to-C compiler.

That comes back to the complaint about the auto-build tools. Using the tools, by themselves, is perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, writing Makefiles by hand isn't particularly onerous. What is frustrating, however, is when I'm expected to edit a Makefile that was generated by a tool without having access to the script that generated said Makefile.

[btilly]

I've seen cases where the low level output is perfectly reasonable. And other cases where the low level output contains a section explicitly meant so that people can insert into it. And other cases where it is unreasonable.

That said, if you find autogenerated "stuff", that is not evidence you can't work on the project. It is evidence that you need to understand something before doing so.

[ploxiln]

I'm sure that, when those skilled engineers cringed at the next higher layer of the stack, that higher layer wasn't reliable yet, it probably had some stability issues and serious performance issues. When it was fully solid they moved on.

I have a degree in electrical engineering, though these days I work on server / infrastructure software. Yeah I have a pretty good idea how stuff works at the c/c++ level and below.

[btilly]

I am not sure of that at all. My experience is that early negative opinions of the next level up don't readily get updated for a very long time, if ever. And the longer you spend holding on to your opinion, the harder it becomes to learn better.

[evmar]

Here's the post you were thinking of, be sure to bookmark it this time! :)

https://plus.google.com/+JeanBaptisteQueru/posts/dfydM2Cnepe

[btilly]

Thank you, that is the link. :-)