[shit_parade]

The fact that you are being down voted is a shame.

The US government tortures people and cares not for the rule of law, this is the entity people seem perfectly happy to support? Where do people draw the line? Is it at genocide?

[Alleluja]

The problem with statements like this is their total lack of balance.

What I mean is that because of Guantanamo you will have people like this going on the air at Russia TV claiming the US Government is a "criminal organization". Nevermind that you are hearing this from KGB sponsored Russia TV that will not discuss at any length things like genocide of over 1 milion chechens or murders ordered by Putin.

For me, it's a bit like someone in the 1930s going to a German Nazi sponsored radio saying how bad racism is in the USA while not thinking twice about anti-semitism of the Germany.

And then at the end of the day you really end up with people who think USA is horrible because of things like Guantanamo being totally prone to Russian propaganda. When Russia is so, so much worse.

The things aren't in perspective when you get rid of context.

[zo1]

>"The things aren't in perspective when you get rid of context."

Context is not necessary. Torture and murder are never okay. So no matter how much "worse" Russia is over America, we will not excuse either. And you can insert any two countries you like in that example above; it'll still apply.

[Alleluja]

Genocide of 1 milion of your own citizens - this is what Putin did. You say American presidents are as bad? Really?!

So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book?

Or what about murderer being a judge in a thief case?

I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy.

Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night.

[Lawtonfogle]

>Genocide of 1 milion of your own citizens - this is what Putin did. You say American presidents are as bad? Really?!

So in comparison can I say that Sandusky was a pretty swell guy whose indiscrittions were completely blown out of porportion? Or what about Ariel Castro? He was a pretty upstanding citizen who was bullied into suicide by the media and a government giving his actions undue focus (in the grander scheme of things).

I'll agree that often our priorities are screwed up, but these individuals who have hurt tens of people are still very bad people. That their total victims is less than rounding error of the victim counts for worse individuals in no way defends what they have done.

[zo1]

>"So Hitler saying Roosevelt is horrible because of racism in the US is perfectly fine in your book?"

Yes. Additionally, it has no bearing on the bad/horrible things Hitler is/was doing at the time I asked the question. Obviously he can't get a free pass for his evil deeds by saying 'but look, Roosevelt is racist, so what I did is OK'.

>"I wish Americans were so ready to see issues in Russia, Iran, China as they are to see very small errors in the US policy.

Russians are banned to even watch CNN nowadays but you guys buy Russia-TV fed propaganda day and night."

I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action.

Though there is something to be said about going for the "low-hanging" fruit first. But, let's face it, most people couldn't be arsed to fix their mildly-bad implementation of democracy. What makes you think they'd be willing to try fix the horrible government in a different country/continent?

[Alleluja]

I will omit other comments you made as I might agree on them or not really care that much.

Here is an important (to me!) point that you made:

>I'm not American, so I can't comment on that part. But in general, I agree with you, people need to be more outraged about everything in general. Whether it's something horrible in Russia, or mildly horrible in America, it should spark outrage/action.

You say people need to be more outraged. I say they need to look into things in a balanced way. If you watch Russia TV only and nothing else, there is a very good chance you will be outraged about a few dozen Guantanamo prisoners being tortured not even knowing at all that they media outlet trying to make you angry about it, is at the same time sponsored by organization (KGB, Russian Government) that took part in a genocide of over 1 milion people. If you listen just to Geobbels and never turn on BBC, you are outraged about wrong stuff (you said that), or your opinions are out of balance (that's what I would say).

[shit_parade]

The more I consider your argument the worse it becomes.

How many times have we heard politicians complain a foreign country is blaming their problems on outside forces and rallying its people by saying they do what they must to protect themselves from the evil west or whoever?

How is your argument rhetorically different than any demogogue in history? Obama stands up and has the gall to drcry foreign extremism, meanwhile he stands silent on the torture occurring in front of him in his own yard.

War is not peace, despite how often you shout such nonsense.

[Alleluja]

Again, balance. Let me give you an extreme example to picture my way of thinking about it to you. Again, it is an extreme exaggaration.

We have 1938. The whole world is talking about Nazis. French, Russians, Brits, Argentinians. You name it. There will be a war, we have this maniac Hitler there, blah, blah, blah. Then - as a tourist I suppose let's say a tourist from France - you visit the US. No mention of Hitler in the US newspapers. It turns out that Americans give very little thought to Nazi Germany. Why? Because they are all horrified and talk all the time about this prison where criminals suspected of killing thousands of Americans are kept. Turns out they were tortured.

Here in Europe we have ISIS from the South. Putin from the East. It's not like China wastes their time too, especially when you look at their Navy and what it is doing on Vietnamese, and foremost Japanese territorial waters.

Fear not. Guantanamo. US Government is horrible. As bad as Russian Iranian, or Chinese. Without them we would have world peace. Jesus Christ just look at Guantanamo!!!

And then - being a tourist - you are obviously like: how this happened? Why they are like this? And you check their news outlets. Turns out they watch KGB-TV to get their news and trust it more than their Government.

When I see something like this, I'm like, dude you don't deserve democracy you have. You are too stupid for it. You will be a Jew proudly voting NSDAP. (sorry couldn't help myself)

[20after4]

Just how much worse is Russia?

[Alleluja]

Chechnya: if I'd need to compare to the US, it would be like the USA invading New Mexico and doing there a genocide to a tune of over 1 milion people (civilians).

[shit_parade]

So your argument is yeah we torture and murder people without cause but this other guy over there, he tortures and kills even more people so it's okay.

America is also recently responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties in Iraq and surrounding countries. We continue to support a military junta in Egypt -- anyone want to dredge up Obama's beautiful speech about freedom he made in Cairo?

No one has really responded to my question, how bad must your employer be, apparently torture isn't bad enough, before you refuse to work for him, or at least stop applauding people who sign up to go help out at the torture club.

[Alleluja]

The problem with people like you is that if we don't do anything inn Syria then you say people die. And if we do something you say because we did something people die.

Very hard to please you.

[shit_parade]

This is not a response to my question.

Also, stop attributing arguments to me and that I'm not making here.

Judged by their actions, American policy makers have zero interest in improving the life's of ordinary civilians throughout the middle east. We ignored Bahrain, we are actively supporting the Egyptian junta, we arm random Syrian rebels, we indisrimately bomb the former remnants of Iraq.

But answer my original question, you seem to be fully willing to work for and defend n entity that tortures and murders without cause, would you also work for a mass genocidal killer? How is it controversial to express repugnance for those willing to abet torture?

[praxeologist]

Just a few hundred more million murders of our own citizens and we'll be more open, honest, transparent and efficient, we promise.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM