[austenallred]

Zed can come off as defensive and/or abrasive. If he disagrees with you he's not afraid to tell you you're an idiot, and if he feels like you're attacking him he'll tell you to go fuck yourself. He's also very, very staunch in his beliefs, some of which are somewhat contrarian.

In an industry as opinionated and "willing-to-call-you-out" as tech is, that doesn't always win a lot of friends.

[ritchiea]

Zed is abrasive, and I don't think I'm a particularly defensive or indirect person. I don't think the issue is that he's willing to be direct with people, it's that he's too quick to tell people to go fuck themselves. A lot of communication issues are misunderstandings and in my experience Zed would much rather tell you to go fuck yourself than listen and figure out what the misunderstanding is. The very best teachers and communicators I know don't hesitate to tell you when they disagree but would almost never literally tell you to go fuck yourself, they find a more polite route.

That said, Zed seems like a good guy at heart, I have seen him offer help to people out of nowhere both here on HN and on Twitter. Not to mention making most (all?) of his Learn the Hard Way material for free. So while I don't particularly care for his communication style I don't want to distract from the fact that he is also doing a lot of great work that genuinely helps people.

[zedshaw]

You're conflating internet interactions with real interactions.

I don't drink at all. Never done drugs and have never been drunk or anything. When I go to bars with friends I find that as the night goes on people become complete drunken idiots and are impossible to deal with. There's no polite way to tell a guy to stop talking to you about his chia pet collection or to keep someone from puking on your shoes or trying to start a fight. Best solution is to just not go to bars, which is what I do. If I need to fit in for some reason, I usually just pretend I'm kind of drunk like everyone else, which I haven't done since I was in my early 20s.

Twitter, these HN comments, IRC, the whole internet is like a massive bar full of drunk idiots. Especially toward the end of the day. Something about the internet makes people turn off their rational mind and just spew hate, stupidity, propaganda, and lies. In this case, it's the same interactions and I get tired of it. You can't tell a belligerent drunk to politely stop smashing your car any more than you can tell a belligerent twitter user to stop talking to you.

So, your comment amounts to judging my interactions with people professionally based on my interactions a bunch of drunk idiots at a bar. Nobody is a saint, and expecting me or anyone else to take abuse and poor behavior like Jesus before you'll think they're a good person is wrong.

And, the fact that you are actually spending your morning (day/night) telling people how I'm a fucked up asshole because of how I deal with fucked up assholes kind of says more about you than me.

[ritchiea]

I disagree with you about the internet. My bet is we're still learning what proper etiquette on the internet is. You have a great point about people not knowing when to let up online, but I also look around and see both the net etiquette evolving and the commentary on it evolving and to me that is a sign we're getting better.

Why am I spending my time today on this conversation? Because you've become reasonably influential (and certainly for good reason, mongrel, learn the hard way, etc) and because of your influence someone might say hey if I'm a good programmer it might be reasonable to have a short fuse with people and tell them to go fuck themselves because Zed Shaw does. And I want to use this space to say, hey I hope we can be nicer to each other. That's it. I really don't want it to be about anyone in particular, I just hope since programmers work with each other and write about each other's work on the internet we can be considerate and try to be nice to each other even when we're being critical.

[las_cases]

> If he disagrees with you he's not afraid to tell you you're an idiot

Honestly, I think this is the other way around. People get defensive and call him names when he is pointing clear mistakes / bad practices. Of course you get frustrated when someone calls you names and it's natural to pay them back in their own coin.

[EliRivers]

I can't think of any industry in which insulting someone because you disagree with them will win friends :)

[pbhjpbhj]

Celebrity industry - it's the modus operandi of some entertainment journalists.

Or, did I miss some implied sarcasm??

[EliRivers]

No sarcasm intended. I live a very sheltered life and in my circles, bad manners gets people cut off, ignored and relegated; certainly doesn't win new friends. HN is pretty much the only place I don't bother with manners.

Does it win these journalists friends, or followers? I suspect the latter, but in the celebrity industry, they're probably the same thing.