[Turing_Machine]

" The notion that it's not a problem to scale up because we can just keep chopping down rainforests for lumber"

You're clearly more interested in preaching that listening to what I say.

Technology increases the yield from current land. By a lot. Thus reducing the need to "pave and plow" more of the planet.

The United States, for instance, has considerably more forest now than it did at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Where do you actually see slash-and-burn agriculture and similar wilderness-destroying methods of farming? Bingo: in the low-tech peasant farming operations that you and the other guy hold out as models.

[cplease]

Where did I hold it out as a model? I said we're not going to feed 7 billion people much less 10 billion with composting toilets and raised beds.

The point is we have industrial agriculture, pesticides, herbicides, and massive amounts of petrofertilizers and other chemicals already widely deployed to artificially increase crop yields providing the great majority of the food supply and we've farmed virtually all arable land already, and food security is still a problem. There will be billions more to feed before population peaks.

What I am saying is that neither modern industrial ag nor permaculture fantasy agriculture or organic farming can sustainably feed the earth's growing population. Population is the problem.

[briantakita]

> permaculture fantasy agriculture

Umm, permaculture takes a systemic approach utilizing science & natural laws. It's working with nature not against nature.

What is a fantasy is monoculture & trucking in fertilizer to squeeze the blood from the turnip of the devastated ecosystem & expecting it to grow forever.

Calling a practical lens, that requires a different set of values & thought, a fantasy is a bit pessimistic & ignorant of humanity's ability to adapt. The transition is happening right now. You may not notice the transition if you are abstracted away from the communities that are changing how how we live & how food is grown. But don't let ignorance & assumptions be your guide on this one.

Many third world countries are adopting small scale, systemic methods because they work. Gardeners produce way more efficiently than large monoculture farms.

When we move into a low energy economy, those who adapt will prosper, those who don't will perish.