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Sure, that was good for you.

I don't think anybody would argue that these jobs aren't good for somebody. The real question is whether they are contributing to society at large.

I know somebody who hired a lobbyist too. Worked out great.

slyall 4103 days ago

Every seen those ratings of countries as "Good places to do business"? Part of that is how well contracts are enforced and debts paid.

Countries where it takes 10 years to force a company/person to pay a debt are not highly ranked and thus people are a lot less willing to do business or invest in them.

Eg You little startup won't be able to lease office furniture if the hiring company doesn't think it can at least seize it back..

Not only have I heard of it, I live in #1.

Would you like a detailed list of reasons why it's not a list you want to be at the top of or would you rather take my word for it?

shiven 4103 days ago

Please do share. I am nonplussed as to why someone (on HN, the bastion of entrepreneurial culture, nonetheless!) would have problems with a societal framework that is #1 for doing business.

Mainly because being #1 for "doing business" often comes at the expense of customers and employees.

Low regulatory protection means stuff like this is deemed acceptable - http://www.tnp.sg/news/sim-lim-squares-phone-scam-makes-head...

It also means that stuff like this, which is regarded as a basic right in other countries, is deem jailworthy - https://sg.news.yahoo.com/singapore-bus-driver-strike-makes-...

This is what it really means to be top of that list.

eru 4103 days ago

Seems worth it. (I used to live in Singapore, too.)

jotm 4103 days ago

Please do list the reasons, I'm interested.

bernardlunn 4103 days ago

Denmark?

Yes. It was good for me and it was good for the other person too. Why? Because it enforces society's moral standards upon everyone. If there is no common ground it descends into anarchy because if someone owes me £1500 I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps if there wasn't a court and bailiff option...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

zo1 4103 days ago

I'm sorry, but if you think that is what a state-less society will turn to, then it says more about you than it does about other people. I, for example, don't not smash people's kneecaps because it's "against the law", just like most other individuals that inhabit this society.

On the other hand, you seem to be under the misconception that there can be no "common ground" in a society without a state-mandated "common ground". Here are some links to start you off on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_resolution_organization

#Note. Sorry for detracting from the main topic being discussed here. But I sometimes do feel compelled to enlighten individuals that seem to have some very "spoon fed" definitions about the possibility of a state-less society, and how it might look like.

rayiner 4103 days ago

I'm curious, have you ever lived in a country without strong centralized law enforcement? I have. It sucks. Even if 90% of people don't use violence, that just creates an enormous incentive for the other 10% of people to do so. And those 10%, organized into gangs, can terrorize the other 90%.

zo1 4103 days ago

>"I'm curious, have you ever lived in a country without strong centralized law enforcement? I have. It sucks."

Did that country also have laws against carrying firearms? How about laws that prevent individuals from defending themselves? E.g. Castle-doctrine, self-defense, private security firms, etc. You may hail it as proof that without a state, safety is not ensured. But I see it as an unfortunate limbo position where there is no protection provided by the state to the inhabitants, and there are also legal/state obstacles in place to prevent private individuals from performing that function.

I live in a country that is in the top 40 on the list of per-capita murder rates in the world. Probably much higher up on the list if you take into account violent crimes, etc. South Africa. It also has a huge industry for security services provided by private companies. Not only that, but a huge population of the country has opted to live in little "security" estates that have controlled access, private security guards, security cameras, electric fences, etc. Neighborhoods that spend large amounts of money on aiding the police in securing their neighborhood using cameras, volunteer patrols, paid private security company patrols, etc. In order to take private security any further, laws need to be removed because they are not being implemented effectively (like the rest of the country, but that's a separate debate). E.g. neighborhoods can't currently cordon off access to their streets, even if they had permission from all the land owners in the neighborhood. This is also the main reason why so many are moving to security estates, because they're huge chunks of private land and as such bypass those rules.

>"Even if 90% of people don't use violence, that just creates an enormous incentive for the other 10% of people to do so. And those 10%, organized into gangs, can terrorize the other 90%."

One of us is right in this regard. Perhaps it's also some sort of gray area where everything except X, Y, Z can be provided for privately without the need for a state. But would you at least concede that we can never know the true point in this spectrum without testing it? I.e. By slowly allowing private companies/individuals to take over safety/security. Note, removing state protection/security services in one go would be disastrous, I would never advocate it as I think it would cause total violent anarchy overnight.

rayiner 4103 days ago

> But I see it as an unfortunate limbo position where there is no protection provided by the state to the inhabitants, and there are also legal/state obstacles in place to prevent private individuals from performing that function.

Private security can't replace the state. In South Africa, the rich can hire private security because the state exists as a backstop to prevent security companies from turning on their clients. Without the state, any organization effective enough in the exercise of violence to provide real security has every incentive to simply enslave its clients.

> One of us is right in this regard. Perhaps it's also some sort of gray area where everything except X, Y, Z can be provided for privately without the need for a state. But would you at least concede that we can never know the true point in this spectrum without testing it?

We have tested it. In Somalia and Yemen and Pakistan. Feudal Europe. States didn't always exist. They arose as defense mechanisms to the power of organized groups to terrorize the majority with violence.

Oh give me a break. This isn't star trek and you're not Picard.

Three simple words derail all idealism in your post:

Corruption. Power. Poverty.

You don't smash people's knees in because you've never had to so you can solicit a payment that you entered a contract and need to eat for the next couple of weeks and you approach the authorities and they've been paid off or don't give a shit.

Humans don't look after each other very well, even if you do.

I simply admit that smashing kneecaps is a valid recourse in a world with the above concerns.

You might want to live in Brazil or South Africa for a bit.

zo1 4103 days ago

"You might want to live in Brazil or South Africa for a bit."

I DO live in South Africa, thank you. I have for the last 8 years. So then, how does that affect your point? Are you implying I don't know what it's like living in a dangerous country because I don't live in one?

Which bit?

>I'm going to pay £200 to smash his kneecaps

The often extreme violence of creditors against debtors, and the way that has debt has been used to control (and often enslave) others is another theme of Graeber's books.

I imagine that you are not a fan.

Bailiffs and debt collectors are two different concepts.