[Dylan16807]

You're not replying to what I said. I'm not talking about victims.

The obligation might not be quite equal for various reasons, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that suffering you face in situation X removes your moral obligations in unrelated situation Y. If there is an obligation for empowered bystanders to help, it applies to everyone.

[camgunz]

I'll endeavor to reply directly to what you said.

Let's use a hypothetical (I love these). There's a female CEO of a company, and one of her female employees is sexually harassed by one of her male employees. Is there an obligation for the company to have a sexual harassment policy and for it to be carried out? Absolutely. Is the female CEO ultimately responsible for this? Yes. If this process fails is she ultimately responsible? Of course. This is the law in the US.

My argument is that you're focusing entirely on the wrong thing. There's not some kind of crazy problem where women in power are overlooking sexual harassment. The problem is that there's an epidemic of men sexually harassing women. In that context, focusing on the female CEO's obligations is deliberately missing the point. It's the same thing as when there's a discussion about sexual harassment, to remind everyone that something like 5% of workplace sexual harassment claims are made by males. Sure, that's a problem, but it's not a problem that holds back an entire class of people, it isn't rooted in centuries of discrimination and oppression, and it isn't pervasive in every institution from schools to courthouses. The problem is with male behavior. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I'll keep saying it.

===

I'll try and crystallize it even further.

> Anyone that's been in a position of power where they could have stopped harassment without much risk, and didn't, is a part of the problem

No. Oftentimes women who stand up against harassment are harshly punished for it. So even when they are in positions where they can, "without much risk" stop harassment, they won't, because they remember how it went last time. They're victims. Promotions and positioning don't change that at all.

But it's important to say again that many women are impressively brave, and even in the face of consequences speak truth to power. But again, that's always their choice, and you don't get to condemn them because you don't understand the concept of victimization.

EDIT:

I just saw this article: https://medium.com/@katylevinson/sexism-in-tech-don-t-ask-me.... You, and everyone else should read it. It's fucked up.

[Dylan16807]

> The problem is with male behavior.

I agree with that, I think. But those men do not automatically drag in all other men and only men as far as obligation to fix the problem.

> Oftentimes women who stand up against harassment are harshly punished for it. So even when they are in positions where they can, "without much risk" stop harassment, they won't, because they remember how it went last time.

Nothing in that sentence is particular to women. Remember that I'm only talking about speaking up about the harassment of other people.

[camgunz]

> But those men do not automatically drag in all other men as far as obligation to fix the problem.

If not them then who? Or do you not agree that women aren't obligated to fix male problems? OR, are you going non-gender binary on me?

> Nothing in that sentence is particular to women.

Men are rarely punished for speaking up about harassment. Men are also rarely harassed, and there isn't an institutional, cultural, societal epidemic of men being sexually harassed in the workplace. I thought we were talking about men harassing women in the workplace re: the topic of the thread.

This is a "but what about the men" comment that, again, deliberately misses the point. Men aren't victims of systemic sexism. Yeah sometimes they're sexually harassed or raped, and that's all horrible and ought to be dealt with. But those events are separate from the institution of sexism that has oppressed women since the inception of the US. We're talking about a huge, entrenched social problem that disadvantages women, not about isolated incidents where men are victims.

> Remember that I'm only talking about speaking up about the harassment of other people.

"Other people" doesn't make a difference. I don't see why you think it would.

[Dylan16807]

>If not them then who? Or do you not agree that women aren't obligated to fix male problems? OR, are you going non-gender binary on me?

I think there are two reasonable answers.

1. The people that do the abusing are the only ones responsible.

2. The people that set society's expectations are partially responsible.

Group 1 is a subset of men. Group 2 is 99% of adults, though men have more responsibility because of how the patriarchy works.

I do not see any reasonable way to declare all men responsible and zero women responsible.

>Men are rarely punished for speaking up about harassment.

I'm going to have to ask for statistics about men and women speaking up about the harassment of third-party women.

>"but what about the men"

It's not meant to be. I'm not trying to ask for any sympathy for men. I'm completely ignoring any men that get harassed, because that's not the problem we're focusing on here.

>"Other people" doesn't make a difference. I don't see why you think it would.

I have no idea what you mean. I will assume my sentence was unclear and restate it. I am talking about a situation where Man A harasses Woman B, and then person C, who has significant resources they can use to help, does something about it. I think if person C has an obligation to help, they have it regardless of their gender.

Edit: Also the answer to "if not them but who" would be the police. (In an ideal world)

[camgunz]

> I think there are two reasonable answers.

> 1. The people that do the abusing are the only ones responsible.

> 2. The people that set society's expectations are partially responsible.

Men are responsible for nearly all workplace harassment, and white men have set society's expectations. The standard of beauty in our society is set by what white men find attractive. The standard of dress, hygiene, speech, appearance and behavior is as well. Notice how all the "workplace appropriate" hairstyles are traditionally white hairstyles, for example. Try getting a job with dreadlocks, or if you don't speak the white dialect of English, or if you can't afford a suit.

It's up to members of the patriarchy to acknowledge our privilege, and speak out about these issues that exist in our own community. You can feel indignant about having never harassed a woman and yet still being responsible for the bad behavior of other men. But it's nothing like the harassment women face, and to continually focus on it is entitled.

Or in your own terms:

1. The people who do the abusing (harassment) are likely not the best actors to fix the problem of harassment

2. White men are the ones who set society's expectations

> I do not see any reasonable way to declare all men responsible and zero women responsible.

I feel like you've ignored practically all of my responses to you.

Are you talking about a hypothetical female CEO (or something similar)? Already addressed.

Are you talking about addressing street or workplace harassment of a third-party, like a bystander? Already addressed by my example of my ex-girlfriend experiencing street harassment. The reason she doesn't engage in these things is that she's been physically stalked by groups of men, multiple times, after calling them out. She didn't expect that to happen. There's no way for her to rationally gauge whether or not she "could have stopped harassment without much risk", because the last time she did that, she was put in a situation where she unexpectedly feared for her life. Many, many women have similar stories. Sometimes when women speak up about harassment, they get shot. There is no way to rationally gauge risk in these circumstances. Harassment is violent behavior.

Speaking up for a third-party woman makes no difference in this situation, which is why I keep saying third-party doesn't matter.

> I'm going to have to ask for statistics about men and women speaking up about the harassment of third-party women.

Third-party doesn't matter. But I will point you to the EEOC's charge statistics: http://eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm

You have to make a leap to get there though; the vast majority of sex discrimination charges are filed by women, and you can't file a retaliation charge unless you've first alleged sex discrimination. I admit the data isn't perfect, but to deny it would be disingenuous.

But I'll also ask you: do you think men are frequently retaliated against for speaking up about the harassment of women? Is this really something I should have to find evidence to dispel?

> I think if person C has an obligation to help, they have it regardless of their gender.

I understand the hypothetical you're making completely. If person C is a woman, she has no obligation whatsoever. It doesn't matter what her job is or what resources she has. She has no way of ascertaining risk in that situation. She also has no obligation to report the incident after the fact. Women are punished heavily for reporting harassment, as the EEOC charge statistics show. Women are forced out of school and their jobs for reporting harassment. Often times third-party women themselves are harassed by the person they reported, to say nothing of the onslaught of harassment they can experience from third parties. Filing sexual harassment complaints in Silicon Valley can get you blacklisted. The mythical situation you're conjuring where a woman can stop harassment when she sees it without risk to herself or others simply doesn't exist. It's an elaborate strawman.

===

Police can't bring about cultural and social change. They can punish harassment, but they can't stop it from happening. If this were how law enforcement worked, the US wouldn't lead the west in incarceration.

[Dylan16807]

>I feel like you've ignored practically all of my responses to you.

Sort of. I'm ignoring the parts that are building on others. The problem is we disagree on fundamental principles.

As best I understand it, the basis of your argument is that white men have set society's expectations, so they have all the responsibility.

As best I understand it, the basis of my argument is that everyone in society (unevenly) sets society's expectations, so they all (unevenly) share responsibility.

There's no way to reconcile those two.

----------

If you want comments on specific points I'll make some, but please realize everything after this line is much less important than what's above it.

>Are you talking about a hypothetical female CEO (or something similar)? Already addressed.

Sorry, I got confused by your CEO argument because you suddenly mentioned harassment by women, that was me reading too fast, sorry. But now I'm more confused. You say the female CEO is responsible, then you keep repeating that no women are responsible.

When it comes to a woman walking down the street, I keep largely ignoring it because someone walking down the street has no particular power. A non-harassing man calling them out is also at risk of being stalked and jumped.

>But I'll also ask you: do you think men are frequently retaliated against for speaking up about the harassment of women? Is this really something I should have to find evidence to dispel?

Probably not, but that's because nobody reports the harassment of others to the extent that they should. The victims have to file, and then they get retaliated against.

Victims get punished for reporting harassment, and that's terrible, and that's mostly women, but it has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion of how everyone around the harassment should act. Because in a group of 20 people, even if all the women get harassed once, they're the bystander 90% of the time.

>Women are punished heavily for reporting harassment, as the EEOC charge statistics show.

I don't think you have shown sufficient evidence that women reporting the harassment of others are punished heavily, and also that they are disproportionately punished compared to men.

I seriously have no idea if men are punished as much. I want to know. I would expect a slight bias but for all I know men are 50x as able to report harassment without being retaliated against. But it needs evidence.