[esgoto]

That's akin to saying we non-murderers aren't responsible for fixing murders, only murderers are. Anyone can help fix this. You're right that ultimately it comes down to men's attitude and actions but anyone can help achieve the changes necessary.

[electronvolt]

I agree that everyone can help.

However, I disagree that claiming that men should take primary responsibility is wrong and I think your analogy is a bit off: unless you're claiming that all men are harassers, which would be pretty hyperbolic.

For better or worse, the men who do this kind of stuff listen to other men a lot more than they listen to women, probably largely because you probably don't respect women if you're harassing them. A clear message that harassment isn't acceptable, coming from other men, is much more likely to reach these people than if only or primarily women are saying it. This kind of behavior thrives when the person taking part in it can rationalize it as normal or OK--and making it clear that isn't the case goes a long way.

[pekk]

Men can try (and take their lumps along with the women trying to do something about these problems). But there are some fundamental cultural splits across which men certainly don't listen to each other. For many, it matters much less whether I am male and much more what religion I observe.

In some subcultures, and cultures, it really is considered the woman's fault if a man feels inclined to harass her (or rape her, as the case may be). I can't sympathetically reach people who stick firmly to these views and are reinforced by large numbers of other people who reject all my arguments and fundamentally reject me, because they just don't share any part of my worldview, we have completely different values. They have me encoded as a threat to tradition, or a nonbeliever, or as not a real man, or as a cultural imperialist, and they just don't want to hear anything I have to say about this.

I can confront these people, and that may carry a certain amount of satisfaction for me, but that sort of confrontation rarely convinces anybody.

In that case maybe we need to stop thinking we are always going to get people to listen to us. What is a rational response to that realization?

[_bfhp]

I never said that women can't help or change things, I said it is not their responsibility. If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men. "Why didn't you leave the company? Why didn't you talk to all the men about appropriate behavior before one of them attacked you?"

[ryanbrunner]

I really don't see how responsibility enters into it. The only people responsible are the people actively harrassing - and expecting them to self-police without anyone calling them out on it is unrealistic. Saying that men as a gender are responsible makes the assumption that all or most men are like the people portrayed in the OP.

I agree with the comment above that the sorts of men who harass are the types that won't listen to complaints from women - so it's necessary for men to speak out about it. In addition to that though, the culture won't change until we shine a light on the abuses that do happen, and given that these are often private conversations, we need women to speak out when they're harassed as well, if we hope to accomplish anything.

It isn't a question of responsibility. It's about all of us, men and women working towards creating a better workplace culture, where this kind of shit doesn't fly.

[googler98765]

> Saying that men as a gender are responsible makes the assumption that all or most men are like the people portrayed in the OP.

No, that's not what it assumes. It assumes that only men are capable of fixing the "boys club" attitudes. And that is spot on. A big part of the problem—and the part that is most easily addressed—is what happens when women are not around. Men need to take responsibility for fixing that.

[ryanbrunner]

I addressed this later in my post. I'm 100% in agreement that men need to call out this behaviour when they see it, not only because it's said when women are not around, but also because the type of men disrespectful enough to harass women are likely to not listen to women. But by the same token, posts like this one highlighting specific incidents of harassment have so much more power than just whispered murmurings, so to solve this problem, women need to call out incidents of harassment, since men aren't always around to witness it.

The language of "responsibility" isn't the correct way to frame it though. I'm not "responsible" for corporations that pollute heavily, but I'm still going to argue against it in order to improve the world for future generations. I don't see how this is all that different.

[_bfhp]

>expecting [harassers] to self-police without anyone calling them out on it is unrealistic

Yes, that is why I charge all of us men with "policing" each other. The non-violent of us should be trying to get the violent of us unlearn the ideologies that justify the violence. It is men who maintain the culture and benefit from it, and it is women who lose, every time.

[esgoto]

Harassment often happens in private. You may know harassers without realizing it. It's really necessary that women speak out about this.

[camgunz]

Women do speak out, and they have been for hundreds of years.

The problem is that when a man is accused of harassment, assault, or rape, that man is usually in a position of power and defended, while the woman is usually blamed, discredited, or otherwise attacked. Many women choose not to speak out because of the negative effect it can have on their career and their peer group, to say nothing of the onslaught of harassment that usually follows. It's much more necessary for society to change its thinking about women who report these actions than it is for women to report them, at this point. Women have been doing it, largely against their own self interest, from the beginning.

[ryanbrunner]

Doesn't this thread highlight how useful specific examples can be though? Discussions about a nebulous sexist atmosphere at tech companies don't generate the type of attention that specific examples like this one does.

I'm not implying that women have been derelict in calling things out. I'm just saying that we should continue to encourage women to come forward with these types of abuses.

[thomasahle]

Are people that make sexual remarks more likely to be violent?

[_bfhp]

Violence is a spectrum, on which harassment sits. If we were not talking about "sexual" harassment and violence, this would be uncontroversial as an implicit assumption.

[camgunz]

Well said, I salute you!

[Dylan16807]

I don't see why it's massively more the responsibility of men that don't harass than women that don't harass. It really is a societal problem, involving everybody, like the murder rate.

>could say that

People will use anything as excuses. Don't give in to them, and don't use their conclusions to make arguments about the premises.

[_bfhp]

You use the word "societal". But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea?

I'm not "giving in" to anything, why is this about me? Do you know what I meant by the word "we"?

[Dylan16807]

You're giving in to the (abstract but real) person that says "If it were, even by a tiny degree, and men continue to hurt women, we could say that women just didn't do a good enough job changing men." That person is wrong and terrible. That person will demonstrate that a particular woman has the smallest iota of responsibility and then blame them 100%. Don't listen to that person. Don't use their flawed argument to support your argument.

>But how are women, who make up more of any human "society" than men, contributing at all to the "problem"? Can you give any examples, or a general idea?

Non-abusing women and non-abusing men both sometimes act as enablers for abusers. By not speaking out. By not firing bad actors. Etc. The abusers are directly to blame, and everyone is indirectly to blame. There is no sane way to conclude that all men but only men are to blame.

[_bfhp]

I'm not saying that they are right, I am saying their argument would work; in fact there is rich historical documentation of that exact argument working, in all of the common situations of male violence against women: rape, domestic abuse, etc. We can find court records including the attire of women as relevant facts to the violence of the man. We can see how many female victims of male domestic violence are asked "why didn't you leave" "why didn't you try to deescalate?"

[Dylan16807]

If that argument was blocked, they would come up with a different argument.

Don't deny women agency in the interests of logically proving bigots wrong. They don't care. They make up excuses.

Anyone that's been in a position of power where they could have stopped harassment without much risk, and didn't, is a part of the problem. This includes many men, and many women. It is important to shame harassers as much as possible.

[anthonyb]

Because those things are usually irrelevant, have been tried to no effect or will make the situation worse. Women get raped wearing tracksuit pants and a hoodie, and leaving a domestic violence situation is often the trigger for more violence (including murder) when the abuser catches up.

[camgunz]

Because it's male behavior.

[Dylan16807]

It's also white behavior, black behavior, human behavior, woman behavior...

[_bfhp]

(Full disclosure: I'm a white male) Statistics overwhelmingly document sexual violence (and all violence, by the way) as male behavior and historical record shows that the ideological and individual defenses of it is also overwhelmingly male. Your sentence is non-sequitur in this context.

[camgunz]

The patriarchy is white, male, and oppresses members of other groups (black men, white women, etc.) Can women sexually harass other women? Absolutely. Is there a huge societal problem where women value other women based solely on their appearance and ability to please men, reducing their opportunities for education, employment, earning, and general success? No. White men hold the cards in US society, and it's the case wherever you look: JDs and MBAs granted, PhDs granted, wages earned, wealth accumulated, income from small and large businesses, statehouses, Congress, the presidency, the board room, Hollywood, etc. etc. etc. You really just can't equate one woman sexually harassing another with an entire institution putting bricks on the heads of half its population from birth.

[Dylan16807]

>The patriarchy is white, male, and oppresses members of other groups (black men, white women, etc.)

And yet you grouped all races together for some reason.

Edit: To elaborate: The current power structure is bad, but it's not a simple male vs. female thing.

[camgunz]

No, you're a little off. If we accept your example, then you're arguing that murder victims are responsible for fixing murders.

There are plenty of differences between murder and sexism (you can only murder a single person and once, sexism has oppressed multiple people multiple times for centuries... millennia?, sexism is a social/cultural phenomenon perpetuated by the patriarchy, murder isn't). The analogy really just doesn't fit.

The responsibility for fixing a problem is never with the victim.