[ganeumann]

Your entire first paragraph is straw men. It doesn't matter how much any individual pays, it doesn't matter what any individual's sentiment is. If Google pays a researcher to do some research, they own it, regardless of how much any individual shareholder paid of that amount or what any individual's sentiment about that research is. Those things are irrelevant.

It's not as easy as "publicly funded research should be free", I agree. As I said, it's that funded research should benefit the funders.

Startups don't benefit from patents. There is plenty of (probably publicly funded) research to show that. Here's a recent paper on patents and innovation: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.27.1.3, or read Joel Mokyr's "The Enlightened Economy" or "The Lever of Riches" and see how James Watt held up the widespread commercialization of the steam engine by refusing to allow his patents to be used downstream (or read the NBER financed study on the impact of patents on downstream innovation: http://www.nber.org/papers/w20269). This paper (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2029098) is probably the most targeted towards whether patents help startups or not. The conclusion they came to was "the patent system was working 'neither well nor poorly for [startups]' and tended to favor larger companies."

And last, if it benefits "society", that is, all people, how can there be free riders? If you mean it benefits non-taxpayers as well as taxpayers, well, that is one of the points of taxes (as opposed to fees.)

[tzs]

> It's not as easy as "publicly funded research should be free", I agree. As I said, it's that funded research should benefit the funders.

It does benefit the funders in the case of government grants. The NSF gives a researcher a grant to scientifically study some specific thing. The researcher makes scientific discoveries about the thing.

The researcher publishes the research, and also (possibly in collaboration with people who were not involved in the research) thinks about how the new science can be applied to produce real world products. The research gets patents on some of those real world applications of the research results.

Note that the public that contributed to funding the research did benefit. The research was released, and they can use it as the basis of further research, or think up useful applications for it (and patent those if someone hasn't already).

I think people tend to confuse the research (which is often paid for by government grants, at least in part), and development of practical commercial applications for the results of the research, which is generally not paid for by government grants.

Note that if the researcher had not worked on coming up with practical applications and patented them, but instead just published the research and moved on to the next project, that doesn't mean there would not be patents. Anyone would be free to take the published research, figure out how to apply it to practical problems, and likely get a patent on that use of the research results. Their patents would not cover the underlying research--just the use of it as described in their patent.

[ganeumann]

Fair enough in theory. But in my experience both the research and the commercialization efforts leading to patents are paid for via grants. Perhaps that would be a fair trade, since the University provides the opportunity for all of this to happen, except that the University usually also taxes the grants to pay overhead. They have their cake and eat it too.

[throwawaykf05]

> If Google pays a researcher to do some research, they own it, regardless of how much any individual shareholder paid of that amount...

Do you assume you are Google rather than the shareholder that you get any say in what happens with that research?

> Here's a recent paper on patents and innovation...

I would take with a jarful of salt anything Boldrin and Levine say. This is a rehash of their "Against Intellectual Monopoly" book, and they do the same mischaracterizing of other research, mis-portraying of actual events and claiming outright falsehoods.

Case in point, the myth that Watt's patents held up steam development (which you too repeated): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6865980. What's really egregious is they refused to admit the truth when called out on it.

Another comment pointing more falsehoods on their part: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7890441

And before anyone else mentions it, the "Wright patent held up US aircraft industry" thing is a myth too: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2355673

The startup / patents paper indeed is interesting, thanks, but the results are more nuanced than the quote you selected: patents do help startups with financing and making successful exits, but they cannot be leveraged effectively because enforcing them is more expensive. That is something that can be fixed if people focused on it rather than the "patent troll" bogeyman.

The "Cumulative Innovation" paper is new to me, but a quick glance suggests some problems with it right away:

1. They derive a model to evaluate their claims, and unless backed up by solid empirical proof, this can be made to support arbitrary hypotheses (see this exchange on an unrelated field: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9082932).

2. Their final data set is very small (1200 or so patents out of millions) and highly biased, since they relate only to litigated patents, and even then, on those they deem to be the "stronger" ones. Indeed, they admit that most other patents being invalidated has no effect whatsoever on their metric for downstream innovation. Even if valid, it is impossible to generalize these results to all patents as a whole.

On the other hand, there are many, many papers that point out the benefits of patent systems that you may not have considered. Yet another comment of mine mentioning some:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8155043

The number of links to my own comments should give you a hint as to how often I debate this topic on HN :-) As usual, I'll wrap up by saying it's a complex and nuanced topic, and point to a meta-study that looks at a large number of other studies that explore both the pros and cons of current patent systems:

"Recent Research on the Economics of Patents" - Bronwyn H. Hall, Dietmar Harhoff, (Google for PDF.)

[ganeumann]

Meh, I still think your first paragraph is straw men. I do have some voice in the matter, as I do with the government. That I have very little voice is not really the point here.

Thanks for the links. A couple of new papers to read there.

FWIW, my assertion that Watt held up development of the high-pressure steam engine and thus the locomotive came from Mokyr, not from Boldrin and Levine. I hold Mokyr in pretty high esteem, so I trust his interpretation, but I have not read the primary sources myself. It's interesting that the paper you mention has had almost no cites...even though it mentions that Mokyr et al commented on it. If they believed it threatened their views, you would think they would respond.

I tried to be evenhanded with the last paper by cutting to a neutral quote. I agree with your interpretation, but what that says to me is that patents are, on average, neither good nor bad for a startup. The plethora of papers arguing one way or the other, almost all with some flawed methodology (c.f. "do patents cause more patents to be filed?" or "why doesn't stronger patent law cause more patents to be filed?", etc.) says to me that there is not yet an answer to this question. This is a problem because patent law consumes a ton of resources, so there should be a rather more definitive answer about its efficacy. (It also seems eminently answerable, albeit with a lot more work defining and collecting metrics; I think, given that academics generally despise "business" questions, that simply counting patents is about all the work they are willing to do. That last paper I cited is the most actual roll-up-your-sleeves work I have seen addressing the question.)

My slant comes from 30+ years in the computer industry, 20 of it backing startups. My general rule of thumb is that if a founder's pitch puts a ton of emphasis on their patents, I pass. Patents have simply proved an ineffective way to defend a new business, in my experience.

Of course, if I were in a discovery-based business, like pharma, rather than an engineering-based business, I would have seen a different sequence of events and so have a different opinion.

[throwawaykf05]

My point was that you do have a little say, but so do millions of others, and a lot of these are conflicting, which makes it difficult to settle on a policy.

> It's interesting that the paper you mention has had almost no cites

I assume you mean the "Strong Steam" paper? I guess it is not as highly cited since most simply don't question the myth and cite those that propagate the myth instead. However, the paper is well-researched and compelling. I also found it a surprisingly good read, fascinating for the historical perspective it offers of technology and industry at the time.

> If they believed it threatened their views, you would think they would respond.

I'm not sure about Mokyr, but Boldrin and Levine did respond, and as the second paper shows, they responded by simply changing their falsehoods.

I mostly agree with your views on the papers in this field. However, I don't think the question is easily answerable because from most of the papers I've read, comparing the benefits and costs of patents is like comparing apples and oranges.

> Patents have simply proved an ineffective way to defend a new business, in my experience.

I actually agree. My experience comes from a startup that was ripped off by the big guys and prevailed with patents, but only after it almost died and most of the original team was laid off. As such the patents could not defend the business, and were only good for some after-the-fact remediation.

To me, this makes it seem like patent law needs to be strengthened to avoid such cases, but more and more "patent reform" is all about making it easier for the big guys to defend themselves.