[trhway]

>democratically elected government of Mr. Poroshenko

interesting how democratically elected Poroshenko is ok while democratically voted separation of Crimea isn't. Democracy is supposed to be a principle not a substitute for the "i like the outcome" label :)

[classicsnoot]

What part of the helicopter assault and naval blockade of Crimea is comparable to the Kosovo settlement? Which previous war with a genocide chaser primed the put-upon citizens of Crimea to form an army, gov't., etc? There is no comparison between Crimea and Kosovo in terms of extra-national interference. Please keep in mind that preping an assault force of Hinds and thousands of unmarked soldiers takes quite a while. The moment the Yanukovich ceded power, Russia began to act.

A better example of western tampering after a 'legitimate' election is in Gaza.

[trhway]

> Which previous war with a genocide chaser primed the put-upon citizens of Crimea to form an army, gov't., etc?

why wait for the genocide to actually happen? The new government in Kiev was completely clear with their very first action being the outlawing of Russian language. The international law, UN, recognize the right for self-determination without requirement of a genocide happening beforehand. Crimea used that right. They were just lucky that Putin's interests were aligned with theirs. The people of Donetsk weren't that lucky - the Kiev's "pacifier" operation (manned by the volunteers from Western Ukraine hating the ethnic Russians with their gut) in Donetsk region had gone into full swing and been really succeeding by the August of 2014 and would definitely succeeded if not for the direct Russia's intervention back then when finally Putin recognized that letting the ethnic cleansing happen in Donbass wouldn't be good for his regime.

Or lets try it from other side - how many ethnic Russians should have been killed by the Kiev pacifiers before you'd recognize right for self-determination for Donetsk (or Crimea if Russia did let the pacification to happen in Crimea) ?

[geoka9]

> why wait for the genocide to actually happen?

The "South-East of Ukraine", which Russia claims is threatened by "genocide", is 9 regions in addition to Donbass and Crimea. None of the 9 regions have seen any ethnic conflict, let alone genocide happening since the hostilities in Donbass began. The hostilities in Donbass have only been possible because of the Russian covert military involvement, as Girkin has confessed on multiple occasions.

Let me ask you a question. Are the Russians living in Nikolaev somehow different to Kiev than the Russians living in Crimea? Why isn't there a genocide going on right now? Or why is that the Donbass cities which are under central government control are not being ethnically cleansed and live in peace, just as the rest of Ukraine does?

Moreover, half of the Ukrainian Army and National Guard (including the volunteers) speak Russian as their first language, and many of them are ethnic Russians from Donbass and the rest of Ukraine.

> The people of Donetsk weren't that lucky - the Kiev's "pacifier" operation

The people of eastern Donbass weren't lucky because that's where Girkin and his merry band decided to "stir things up" after being inserted from Russia. Hadn't it been for them, Donbass would be as peaceful and prosperous as the rest of Ukraine. Girkin has confessed as much himself.

> manned by the volunteers from Western Ukraine hating the ethnic Russians with their gut

This is simply not true. Look up the videos filmed by the Ukrainian soldiers, check the names of the wounded and killed on the Ukrainian side - plenty of them are ethnic Russians.

> Or lets try it from other side - how many ethnic Russians should have been killed by the Kiev

Let's try another one: how many people in eastern Donbass would have died if Girkin and his people hadn't appeared in Slavyansk prompting a covert military invasion from Russia? (hint: consider the rest of Donbass and the South-East of Ukraine).

[trhway]

>Are the Russians living in Nikolaev somehow different to Kiev than the Russians living in Crimea? Why isn't there a genocide going on right now?

because it has been made clear by Crimea and Donbass that if Ukraine tries it openly, the Russian tanks will come to Kiev, and Ukraine will lose even more territory. The massive shelling of cities, mainly and primarily Donetsk, by the Ukrainian forces (in many cases using cluster warheads on unguided missiles fired from multiple rocket launcher systems like "Smerch" and "Uragan" into the purely residential high-density districts located far from the actual battle lines) is the genocide and ethnic cleansing being performed under the cover of military action.

>Let's try another one: how many people in eastern Donbass would have died if Girkin and his people hadn't appeared in Slavyansk prompting a covert military invasion from Russia? (hint: consider the rest of Donbass and the South-East of Ukraine).

Girkin provided the focus point for the nationalists forces who had been doing "buses and trains of friendship" across all those regions and thus his incursion stopped the escalation of violence in those regions. It was like a lightning rod taking the hit away from other places. The message was clear - you either continue beating up and burning pro-Russian protesters in Kharkov, Odessa, etc... while Girkin takes the territory or you come and fight the Girkin thus leaving other people alone until Girkin problem is solved. As i was saying back at the time - until Ukraine understands that violence and oppression wouldn't provide the solution, Ukraine will be losing the territories and losing in other domains too.

[geoka9]

> because it has been made clear by Crimea and Donbass...

I'm sorry, but all of this is pure Kremlin propaganda. You can't blame nazism on a nation that has people of various ethnicities (including Russian) fighting in its Army and the National Guard, and has people of various ethnicities (including Russian) in positions of power, including the elected officials (Poroshenko himself is of mixed origin, as well as Yatsenyuk). Why, even some of the protesters who died on the Maidan ("Nebesnaya Sotnya") were not ethnic Ukrainians (they were Russian and Armenian). The whole nazi scare is just propagandistic nonsense.

> Girkin provided the focus point for the nationalists forces....

Please watch his interviews. He's literally saying that if it wasn't for his involvement, there would be peace all over Donbass. "I started the war which is still raging on."

I'm sorry, but the rest of your posts is just propaganda, which I'm not going to even try to refute. If you really believe in what you're saying, consider visiting Kiev and seeing for yourself that there's absolutely no ethnic tension. In fact, there's unity: Ukrainians, Russians, Tatars, Armenians, Georgians - you name it - all consider themselves Ukrainians trying to fight off a military aggression as one nation.

[classicsnoot]

I have to agree with @geoka9. Your post is utter tripe when taken in context. I would ask you to explain the rape of Chechnya, but i fear i would piss myself with laughter.

Russia will get away with these monkeyshines as long as America has a domestically focused President. Russia will sit on its ass economically as long as Europe is addicted to petroleum.

There is a clock on the wall counting down for both of those things.

[trhway]

>I would ask you to explain the rape of Chechnya

what to explain here? Everything is well known. Chechnya wanted independence and it was bloodily squashed. Pretty typical story. Russia isn't a modern Britain where you can have an independence referendum. Russia is a very autocratic imperially ambitious state. Just publicly talking about separation (check the recent set of laws incl. the "public mass media" law) will most probably lead you to jail.

Of course, like pretty much any other power, the Russia uses double standards - one internally and another externally. So right of self-determination of Crimea has existed only until it actually joined Russia :)

[classicsnoot]

>why wait for the genocide to actually happen?

What Russia is doing/has done in Chechnya is ethnic cleansing. They [Chechens] have been fighting for self determination for 30+ years. Your rhetoric, much like my own country's, falls flat in the face of facts.

>Crimea used that right.

The prevalence of this melarke is astounding. The chronology is a matter of public record. The 'vote' was nearly a month after the invasion.

>Kiev's "pacifier" operation

I have no knowledge of this. I do remember that Ukrainian paras and LEOs cracked down on extreme [Ukrainian] nationalist in the Western Ukraine before they began the fight against the Cossack invasion.

>Putin recognized

...10 years ago that the Ultra-Nationalists in Russia would tear the country apart. He is backed into a corner, ruling a nation controlled by thugs with very little to offer the global economy outside of shit tier weapons and petroleum products.

>...before you'd recognize right for self-determination for Donetsk

Do you support Palestinians, Tamils, Uyghurs, Kosovars right to self determination? I am not an advocate for mass slaughter. I firmly believe in equal representation. Partitioning countries by ethnic division is the fast track to both.

It seems very clear to me that Russia is backed into a corner. They have a dwindling, ignorant population obsessed with decadence. The have a poor geographical position. They have severe cultural divisions. The invasion of Ukraine as well as the impending invasions of Georgia, Bosnia/Croatia, and the Baltic States are a large gambit. Hilariously, it seems to be working so far.

The only thing that stands in the way of Russian Gangster Ascendancy is a German Army with U.S. equipment. Putin knows this. I have no faith in my Nation's wherewithal and resolve. 4000+ KIA in 10 years has nearly broken our military; how can those weaklings go up against a country more willing to slaughter their children and burn their livelihoods instead of retreat? Bully tactics work on the US and most of Europe. Germany and Scandinavia, less so.

[trhway]

>>Crimea used that right.

>The prevalence of this melarke is astounding. The chronology is a matter of public record. The 'vote' was nearly a month after the invasion.

of course. Without Russian military presence any attempt at the vote would be bloodily squashed by the [Western] Ukrainian volunteer battalions.

>>Kiev's "pacifier" operation

>I have no knowledge of this.

It is what officially called "Anti-Terrorist Operation" that is happening in the Donbass.

>I do remember that Ukrainian paras and LEOs cracked down on extreme [Ukrainian] nationalist in the Western Ukraine before they began the fight against the Cossack invasion

A creature of Hell - Sashko Bilyy - was killed in pretty strange situation. Even Ukrainian nationalists finally decided to stop being publicly associated with the river of blood and torture he was leaving in his wake.

>>Do you support Palestinians, Tamils, Uyghurs, Kosovars right to self determination? I am not an advocate for mass slaughter. I firmly believe in equal representation. Partitioning countries by ethnic division is the fast track to both.

yes, i do. As Eltsyn said in 1991 when USSR was breaking up - "Take all the sovereignty you're able to carry away." Unfortunately, this short period of bloodless (or low-bloodness)independence getting was more of exception in the world rather than rule.

>It seems very clear to me that Russia is backed into a corner. They have a dwindling, ignorant population obsessed with decadence. The have a poor geographical position. They have severe cultural divisions.

it is pretty typical situation for Russia.

>Hilariously, it seems to be working so far.

will see. Falling of oil prices was a nice punch that Russia still need to live through. Last time it happened - mid-198x - the USSR went down like in boxing knock-down.

>The only thing that stands in the way of Russian Gangster Ascendancy is a German Army with U.S. equipment. Putin knows this. I have no faith in my Nation's wherewithal and resolve. 4000+ KIA in 10 years has nearly broken our military; how can those weaklings go up against a country more willing to slaughter their children and burn their livelihoods instead of retreat? Bully tactics work on the US and most of Europe. Germany and Scandinavia, less so.

If you look at the actual fighting in Donbass you'd notice that Russian military isn't very effective as a whole system. Of course, having nuclear ICBMs Russia thus willn't be made subject to "pacifying" invasion from NATO, yet Russian military also in no condition to effectively fight a high-tech force of NATO. Bully tactics works because NATO doesn't want any war, successful or unsuccessful, because peaceful life is that much better and cost effective. Putin's regime on the other side is under huge stress, economical and political, and "small victorius war" would seem like a miracle medicine for it. Like with other similar regimes in similar situations such war somehow just doesn't materialize (Falkland war comes to mind). Nevertheless, when Ukrainian nationalists took power in the coup and couldn't force themselves to work through the main course - buildup of economy and army - and instead went straight for the desert - solving "issue" of ethnic Russians - it was an opening Putin couldn't resist. It was his wet dream come true. The bloodless takeover of Crimea (with full support by the majority of the Crimea population, technical/procedural issues with the referendum be damned :) shot his approval rating into stratosphere ... Well, despite it looking like a "miracle medicine", such actions have only short-term effect of opiatic pain-killer with real problems staying unsolved and only going worse... So, more pain-killer is in order...

[hurin]

The U.S. by some accounts set a bad international precedent with Kosovo. Crimea is not objectively any different from the former.

Even the civil war in Ukraine, which is absolutely criminal has international precedent (vis a vis Syria).

[classicsnoot]

...Russia provided troops and equipment for the peacekeeping force in the Balkans. Also, that operation was planned and executed by NATO ( their first, I believe). Whatever the case, I believe the Kosovo/Serb cold conflict will be the next excuse for Russian expansionism. Either there, or as well as there, in Dagestan/Ossetia/Georgia regions.

[geoka9]

There was no "democratically voted separation of Crimea", it was a farce.

[trhway]

It was free voting by the majority of people on that territory. Can you explain why such a thing can be called a farce? As the only reason i see to call such thing a farce is because one doesn't like the results.

[geoka9]

> Can you explain why such a thing can be called a farce?

Mostly because people were to choose between two options both of which meant that Crimea would secede from Ukraine (the first one meant outright separation, the second a disguised one).

But there are other things which made it a farce: an armed occupation of the parliament building and forcing of the MPs to vote for the referendum[1][2], the haste with which the referendum was held (two weeks notice, not allowing for the sides to prepare arguments for and against the cessation), lack of public debates discussing pros and cons of the cessation, the fact that the "referendum" was not approved by the Ukrainian parliament, growing evidence that the outcome of the "referendum" had already been decided elsewhere[1][3].

I could go on, but if you're really interested in an example of a cessation referendum which was not a farce, consider the Scottish independence referendum of 2014 and compare its particulars with the Crimean one, side by side.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcCqrzctxH4

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUH-A3IF3h0

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_%22For_the_Return_of_Crim...

[trhway]

ok, so non-following of the full set of details of a full-fledged democratic process makes the will of the people illegitimate. Are you kidding me? A coup of nationalist forces has just overthrown the legitimately fully democratically bells-and-whistles elected president, and now this new nationalist regime that took power through the coup is unsatisfied with the quality of democratic process a minority (primarily targeted by the new regime) used to run away from the coup. You can't be serious.

This is exactly the double standard i was talking about.

[geoka9]

> ok, so non-following of the full set of details of a full-fledged democratic process makes the will of the people illegitimate.

It makes the referendum illegitimate and its results questionable.

> Are you kidding me?

No, I'm not. For what it's worth, I'm not opposed to the idea of referendum at all, as long as it is done legally. I'm sure that if Moscow was so bent on having Crimea, they could have come to a political agreement with Kiev, and it would be legal and Crimea wouldn't have all those problems it's having now (e.g. lack of water, power, food price surges, crippled transport connections with the mainland, etc.). And Russia would have spent a lot less compared to what it's spending now on the war, maintaining a semblance of normal life in Crimea, and the sanctions.

The problem is that was not the goal of the folks in Moscow. They wanted to create a political crisis so they seized Crimea by force. When it didn't work, they inserted Girkin in Donbass. If Ukraine had given up Donbass just like it did Crimea, the next insertion would probably be Kharkov. And so on. It's not Crimea or Donbass the Kremlin is after, it's all of Ukraine - it's practically written on the wall. The nazi scares and the rest of the Russian propaganda are just an effort to garner sympathy from abroad for the military invasion.

[trhway]

>> ok, so non-following of the full set of details of a full-fledged democratic process makes the will of the people illegitimate.

>It makes the referendum illegitimate and its results questionable.

by what standards? By the standards of democracy for Britain - i'd agree that you have a good case to challenge the Crimea referendum on serious technicalities. But it wasn't Britain, it was Ukraine. According to the standards of Ukraine's "democracy" a coup overthrowing a democratically elected president is a legitimate transfer of power. The Crimea separation did met and exceed very much (compare coup vs. referendum, even a flawed one) those legitimacy standards of the Ukraine democracy.

The forces that currently have power in Kiev had a choice back then - violent coup vs. fully democratic impeachment of the democratically elected president. They chose the coup and thus flushed down the toilet the democracy contract of the Ukrainian state. Their claims that Crimea separation from them wasn't fully democratic are just laughable.