[keppy]

As other people have stated here, security is a justified means to an end to those who practice it.

I cringe a little bit whenever someone starts on the "first they came for..." monologue. Not because it isn't true, but because it first was used talking about the Jews in WWII Germany. You're effectively playing the Hitler card in a debate that isn't about Hitler.

The US was built in part by this type of security. Chances are things would be very different here if the security professionals over the years made decisions based on moral qualms.

I am playing the devils advocate, but when you look at the senate, it's hard to actually point a finger at the intelligence agencies. This is the world we have made, fear mongering hardly fits into this argument, and certainly adds nothing of substance.

[mike_hearn]

What kicked off this whole thing was Clapper lying to the elected representative about what the NSA was doing. That was the trigger event that caused Snowden to finally leak his cache. So I don't think you can totally blame Congress or the Senate, even though they surely have deep problems.

The US was not built by this type of security. What the NSA is doing only became possible quite recently. It's just in a whole other world to what was previously imaginable.

[lawnchair_larry]

I understand why that might make you uncomfortable, and I do hesitate to make such comparisons. But, you know who cringes when they hear about the surveillance apparatus that we are building in the Five Eyes countries? Germans.

[mercurial]

I cannot imagine older citizens from the former East Block countries feel very good about it either.

[keppy]

Yes, this is a valid and timely point. On a side note, I hope that the companies and corporations that will come out of the startup scene in Germany can help to counterbalance the over reaching. There is certainly demand for progress in the direction of personal privacy, and Germany seems well suited to spearhead that movement.

[DyslexicAtheist]

Berlin is first choice of several high profile US citizens who have become fed up (or had to leave) due to US bullying