[tripzilch]

> Case in point: Hate speech is illegal in Germany, which is understandable given German history, but a violation of free speech rights in the U.S.

Germany gave up that part of their free speech because of the horrors they inflicted upon the world, they wanted to prevent happening ever again no matter what. I've yet to see the USA make any kind of adjustment for the atrocities, torture, murders, war crimes they pulled.

Point is, the USA doesn't have any more slack left over. So yeah targeted surveillance that might otherwise considered fine and just if it were done by the "good guys" or even just a responsible party, is going to be met with a large amount of suspicion. And for good reason. These are powerful capabilities the USA doesn't even seem to be able to keep in check internally, who knows what it'll be used for (at the very least it'll show up in economic/corporate espionage, that's a certainty).

[etrevino]

> Germany gave up that part of their free speech because of the horrors they inflicted upon the world, they wanted to prevent happening ever again no matter what. I've yet to see the USA make any kind of adjustment for the atrocities, torture, murders, war crimes they pulled.

This comparison really isn't apt or constructive. Not only has none of the top US leadership been indicted for war crimes in the ICC or by the UN, but the German state and quite a number of the German people knowingly participated in the extinction of at least 12 million people. Whether you think that the Iraq War was right or legal or not doesn't matter unless there is an indictment and conviction. In addition, the sum total of the crimes-- whatever they may be-- do not add up to total societal or national culpability.

[saiya-jin]

There is this Bush guy, easily the most hated US president to date by rest of the world (ie those +-95% of human race outside US). Let's not get too much into his lackey Rumsfeld... If in some ridiculous alternate reality Iraq would defeat US & UK and would actually went on and conquer them as nations, theye guys (joined by UK PM for examlpe) could easily end up in similar trial and be hanged.

As you know, rules and history are written by vinners ;)

[etrevino]

There is this Bush guy, easily the most hated US president to date by rest of the world (ie those +-95% of human race outside US). Let's not get too much into his lackey Rumsfeld... If in some ridiculous alternate reality Iraq would defeat US & UK and would actually went on and conquer them as nations, theye guys (joined by UK PM for examlpe) could easily end up in similar trial and be hanged.

That really doesn't matter to my argument above, though, does it? Whether or not the world hates the guy doesn't make him a war criminal. And whether or not he's hated doesn't change the fact that there hasn't been an indictment, much less a conviction, outside of Malaysia.

To briefly comment on your alternate scenario it's important to point out that Victor's Justice is not the same as a War Crimes trial.

As you know, rules and history are written by vinners ;)

History PhD here and I can say with confidence that this isn't true. In the US there is and was an enormous amount of literature by former Confederates and neo-Confederates defending the antebellum American South and the American Civil War. Similarly, in the aftermath of the Second World War there was a large number of exculpatory memoirs by German generals. These more or less informed the historical literature in the aftermath of the Second World War for an entire generation.

History is written by the writers.

[tripzilch]

But the US doesn't recognize the ICC's authority ...