[krschultz]

I think if you start with the assumption that it would be unacceptable for the US government to do nothing about protecting the American people from terrorist attack, the kinds of targeted cyber-espionage described in the article sound pretty reasonable.

They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer.

They're better than torturing people.

They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world.

Of all the things the government could be and should be doing, spying on people that in high likelihood are a threat to the US sounds like the one I'm OK with them continuing. You have to admit, slowing down another country's nuclear weapons program with a computer virus is vastly preferable to pretty much any other option on the table - even including "peaceful" sanctions which end up having a human cost.

[doczoidberg]

The war against terror is only an excuse for this overwhelming mass cyber-espionage.

Explain me why you spy out german government. Is Merkel a potential terrorist? Yes sure.

[doczoidberg]

What's on the roof of the US embassy in Berlin then? http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-...

[happyscrappy]

Europe loves to complain about the US but can't be arsed to actually do anything about it, they just keep electing leaders that do what the US says.

[krapp]

It's almost as if there's some mutually beneficial relationship going on between US and European intelligence and military agencies, and the anger of Europe's governments is mostly political sideshow...

[Zigurd]

The Deep State model works so well in Turkey, why not replicate it worldwide?

[wongarsu]

It's surprisingly hard to find political leaders that are willing to stand up to the US and still have reasonable opinions on how to run a country.

[throwaway2048]

The USA works very hard to radicalize anti american factions within a country. If the choices are US backed dictator, or religious nutjob, its not much of a hard choice.

[happyscrappy]

Who are the dictators and religious nutjobs in power in Europe?

[LLWM]

Perhaps because it's pretty obvious that the US is a force for good in the world and only crazy people would deny that.

[allemagne]

I can understand feeling morally opposed to it, but a realist might tell you that it's important to spy on the German government simply because it's a powerful actor, even if it's an ally of the United States.

[shit_parade]

While another realist would point out that being caught spying on our fellow allies has seriously damaged our relations with them.

[Amezarak]

A realist would point our that our allies are also spying on us and the outrage is a facade being leveraged for political ends.

[biafra]

Or not. Merkel doesn't seem to care much anymore. They probably knew this was happening. It was just embarrassing that suddenly the public also knew.

[etrevino]

Bingo, and if you think that they're not (trying to?) watch us, you'd be wrong.

[XorNot]

That realist would be a fool who takes the exasperated statements of politicians at face-value. Were any long term trade agreements threatened? Embargoed in a way where they actually did it, not just talked about it? Was military cooperation withdrawn, diplomatic ties severed?

Absolutely none of this happened. A lot of words happened. Mysteriously, for exactly as long as Snowden was in the news right up till Russia invaded the Ukraine.

[asheldon]

That's why she wasn't spied on.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/11/us-germany-usa-spy...

[nl]

That reports they can't find forensic evidence. But the US Senate's statements[1] make it plain that it did.

[1] http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/28/politics/white-house-stopp...

[robbiep]

It is unreasonable to do nothing to stop the loss of innocent lives.

However the war on terror is a media beat-up that sells papers, keeps eyes glued on tv's and serves to support the agenda of politicians who capitalise on the state of fear to get elected.

This is particularly evident in the United states- as a visitor there over the past several years the level of discourse on terrorism is completely out of keeping with the actual threat, or the level of fear in my own country (australia) despite our proximity on all cultural datapoints

how many terrorists in a cave have the sort of it infrastructure that require the equivalent of a Manhattan-project of cyber-espionage? (I mean, re-writing manufacturers hdd firmware?! Wow!)

[StavrosK]

> They're better than launching entire wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, cost unfathomable amounts of money, and last for over a decade, without really achieving the objective of making the country safer.

So is doing nothing at all.

> They're better than torturing people.

So is doing nothing at all.

> They're better than mass surveillance of the entire population of the country - if not the world.

So is doing nothing at all. We have three horrible solutions, and one that's just terrible. Maybe we should look for a good solution instead.