[xiaq]

A shell is a REPL. The problem is that the shell is sloppy in that it only deals with bytes and cannot process any complex data structure.

Again, advertisement for my side project https://github.com/elves/elvish, a Unix shell with true data structures. Still a WIP though.

[omaranto]

There is already a well-developed shell with rich data structures and a fairly reasonable programming language: Microsoft's PowerShell. Sadly it is not a Unix shell. You're probably aware of it, but if not, check it out for design inspiration.

[xiaq]

Of course! PowerShell definitely has a lot of brilliant ideas. Sadly it is overenginnered and has quite some design mistakes. Nevertheless it has served as a great source of inspiration for me - I have actually gone through several PowerShell manuals before I started elvish.

[ygra]

As someone who loves PowerShell and uses it daily, may I ask for specifics for design mistakes and overengineering? You may also answer per mail if you want.

Don't get me wrong, I realise it has its flaws and warts, but for me, and comparing to cmd or bash I still think it's very, very much an improvement.

Off the top of my head actual mistakes (the sort that tends to bite many people) include handling of [ and ] in -Path arguments (necessitating -LiteralPath arguments in later versions), and the constant wondering whether something returns a scalar or an array (and an array of one element being unwrapped into a scalar automatically). During my time working on Pash I also noted a few weirdnesses on source code side, most recently and notably LanguagePrimitives.Convert which has a dependency on the currently-executing runspace (which is stored in a thread-local field).

[pjmlp]

> A shell is a REPL.

Only when it allows the same expressive power over the OS as Lisp Machines, Interlisp-D, Cedar, Oberon have over the running environment.

The only mainstream modern shell that approaches that is Powershell.

Edit: forgot to say good luck for your project

[anom9999]

You don't need support for complex data types for a shell to be described as "REPL".

REPL is just a Turing-complete real time interpreter. Which means even the VBA "Immediate" panel in (as seen in MS Office) is REPL. And it means Bash is REPL too.

The question you're raising is whether all REPLs are equal. Lisp machines definitely had more control over the host than VBA does. But that doesn't mean that VBA's immediate panel isn't REPL just because a more powerful example exists.

As for Bash, that's a bit of a weird one because Bash wouldn't be much without the accompanying GNU / POSIX userland. But if you're willing to include a UNIX / Linux userland into scope then Bash has just as much control over the host as Lisp did on Lisp machines. But even without the aid of forking additional executables, Bash can still modify the state of the kernel directly. eg

    echo 0 > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness
    echo 3 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches

(For those who may not have been aware, echo is a built in command in Bash)

[pjmlp]

You are missing the part about manipulating other applications or controling GUI elements, like Powershell kind of allows via DLL interop and OLE Automation.

As for /proc/sys, not all UNIXes have such features.

In Oberon I could pipe selected text from any application into any command that had a GUI aware type signature, for example.

[anom9999]

> You are missing the part about manipulating other applications or controling GUI elements, like Powershell kind of allows via DLL interop and OLE Automation.

There are lots of command line hooks for GUIs. Want to copy data to the clipboard from the command line? xclip. Want to pop up a notification in your desktop environment's notification bar? notify-send "hello world!" etc

> As for /proc/sys, not all UNIXes have such features.

That example of mine was clearly taken from Linux - so it goes without saying that most UNIXes would behave different in that specific regard. Even so, they'd still have command line tools for doing the same thing (and to be fair, Linux does too, even with a vaguely-Plan 9 virtual file system)

> In Oberon I could pipe selected text from any application into any command that had a GUI aware type signature, for example.

Well like I said, I'm not trying to say that all REPL's are equal, but most of what you're describing is still possible in at least Linux. I'm not saying it's as intuitive nor "pretty" as it would have been on the Oberon, but it's certainly possible.

To be quite honest, most of what you've been posting on this topic has really just been elitism. And I do actually sympathise with your point as working in Bash can be a complete hateful mess at times (even without comparing it to the old Lisp machines). But that doesn't change the fact that Bash is a REPL environment.

[PantaloonFlames]

> it only deals with bytes and cannot process any complex data structure.

Just FYI. Microsoft tried to address that problem in Windows a long time ago when it introduced Powershell.

[whitten]

Does Powershell provide a 'datatyping facility' for the contents of Files? or is it just values returned from Powershell defined objects or methods?

[ygra]

Contents of files are, depending on how you read them either a byte[], a string or a list of strings (lines). You can run them through parsers for JSON, XML, CSV or whatever else is handy to get actual objects. In the CSV case there are even cmdlets that work directly with files (Import-Csv, Export-Csv), for XML I usually use [xml](gc file), more general there are the ConvertFrom-* and ConvertTo-* cmdlets, e.g. for JSON and CSV.

[xiaq]

See my reply to omaranto.