[mackwic]

The question is not if Placebo is an efficient method. We know for sure that it is. The question is if training and practicing meditation is better than doing nothing.

If you don't beat the placebo, it could mean that there's nothing to train and practice.

[vidarh]

It is meaningless to speculate on this without a concrete paper doing a concrete comparison of a specific concrete form of meditation vs. a concrete form of placebo, and without knowing whether or not the placebo was compared to a control group doing nothing.

You're right, it could mean there's nothing to train and practice. It also could mean there'd be a substantial placebo effect and a big gap from "doing nothing" to either the placebo or meditation, in which case, even if meditation were to turn out to be 100% placebo effect it would still be worthwhile to train and practice unless said researchers were to come up with a placebo that works just as well with less time spent.

What I know is that meditation has substantial subjective benefits for me. I don't care if that's 100% placebo effect and/or if I'm just tricking myself in other ways.

Because you know what? It doesn't matter.

Meditation makes me feel relaxed. It makes me feel as if I get insights into my mind and thought processes. It makes me feel like I have more energy. It make me feel more in control and in touch of my emotions and the world in general.

No matter the actual biochemical and psychological reasons for those feelings, they're still just as worthwhile outcomes to me.

That's easy to lose sight of.

Beating a placebo is an important measure when looking at drugs, because they pretty much all have potential risks and downsides (including the downside of cost). Showing provable effects is also important if considering prescribing meditation practice for psychological disorders, for example, because it could mean avoiding other treatment.

It is also worthwhile in order to learn more about the processes involved, and see what effects can be proven.

But it is largely uninteresting when considering casual meditation for someone who expects only subjective effects on mental state. In that case, what matters is mainly whether the perceived effects are sufficiently positive for someone to find it worthwhile to continue.

If it's all a trick of the mind, then fine. It still feels great.

[mackwic]

Great answer, and I agree with you. As a practicer it doesn't really matters as long as you get your dose of well-beingness.

I was more thinking of all the "train yourself to meditate" thing which can end with more frustration than relaxation for some, relatively of the scientific measure of this training (which is imperfect as we just saw).

On a side-note, I practice relaxation on the evening and I don't see such huge effects on my mind but "only" a greater sleep (which is already great). Could you share some of your practices ?

[vidarh]

I only practice mindfulness meditation with varying frequency, sitting anything from about 5 minutes to 30 minutes, rarely longer.

Typically mindfulness meditation starts with basic breath meditation: Sit in a stable, comfortable position, focus on your breath and notice it going in and out. If thoughts appear, try to keep focus on the breath but don't force the thoughts away, just try to let them dissipate without continuing them.

The big difference for me with unstructured relaxation was that it was hard at first to focus on the breath. My mind produced all kinds of objections to sitting there and paying attention.

Sitting for 5 minutes like that caused my mind to practically rebel. Then I went through a period with dream-like states (one of the most memorable effects, which I've only had a few times, was like seeing a dream unfold around me, but while dreams always feel "fuzzy" and unclear for me this was as if I was standing in the middle of a theatre set, seeing everything clearly, yet knowing it was not real).

Then I had a period of what is something referred to as "monkey mind" - all kinds of distractions piled on. Then I went through a period where I would suddenly get an intensely strong belief that I'd forgotten to set my alarm and was going to be late. I knew I'd set my alarm, but the feeling would become unbearable until I looked at my (set) alarm. I had to solve that by triple check the alarm before I started, and telling myself it was set, and telling myself it didn't matter because I had lots of time free after it was set to go off, and then it stopped happening (and I don't triple check my alarm any more).

These distractions were not constant, and I could sit longer and longer before they'd set in. After a few weeks of daily practice they were weakened enough that I started feeling I was getting somewhere.

Once I'd gotten past those distractions, it changed nature very strongly. Now I slowly sink into more and more relaxed states depending on how long I sit. At about 20 minutes I will generally start feeling as if I am noticing the pulsing of blood in my eye lids and pressure on my eyes (I have no idea if those are real physical sensations or not - doesn't matter to me) and see patterns similar to what you might see if you squeeze your eyes firmly shut and feel a sense of blissful calm that makes it tempting to just stay like that.

If I sit longer and focus, those feelings dissipates as I get calmer and more concentrated and I can best describe it as if my mind is "emptying" and clearing of whatever feelings the sense of bliss brought, and it feels more steady and crisp. It's very hard to relate the sensations of it with words.

If I sit to the "bliss" state or past, I will feel an immense feeling of calm once I finish that will often last for hours afterwards.

I'd recommend the frequently recommended Mindfulness in Plain English (available for free online, or from Amazon etc.) or Introduction to Mindfulness (free podcasts) by Gil Fronsdal. Both are no-nonsense secular introductions and very simple, basic practice to try out and see if you like the effects.

[collyw]

If someone is stressed (from work, relationships, etc) we accept that it can and does have negative effects on our physical being. I would have thought that meditation would easily fall into the category of doing the opposite. Seems pretty obvious to me.