[jsprogrammer]

>Then what incentive would there be to start one, or to design a business model that will outlive said fixed time?

Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains. Those who start, design, and execute the business will be gaining the shares over time as they are employees (although, I'm not sure this would still be the right nomenclature) of the business. How about this question, "Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?".

>Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?

Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources.

[pluma]

> Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources.

I'm self-employed, my family history includes a fair share of entrepreneurs. Even so, saying you intend to start your own company is met with strong skepticism.

Trust me when I say, the thing stopping most workers from starting their own company is not just the lack of financial resources (as a matter of fact, I became self-employed without any savings to speak of and no financial support at all).

Although it's becoming increasingly less realistic, a lot of people still have the mentality that having a regular job provides financial safety and a guaranteed income while starting your own company creates a huge risk.

[roel_v]

"Outside investors could still recoup their initial investment + gains"

But less, otherwise there would be no reason for the workers to want any part of it. Will the workers pay the investors back if the business goes tits up?

"Why should an initial investor get an everlasting percentage of profits without continuous input?"

Because it's his, and there is no reason to require ongoing effort to reap the benefits of something? Does an orchard owner only 'own' the apples from his trees if he has actively watered them?

"Moreover, why don't the workers then just start the company in the first place?" "Probably for the same reason they mostly don't now, they lack the financial resources."

So Mary down the street owns a hair dressing salon, which she financed with the savings she build up over her 10 years as an employee of another salon (where she, I presume, quit before she got any part of that salon - maybe because she joined too late? Period not yet up? Not sure how all this would work). In the 'plan' you are defending, she would have to give the ownership of that salon to her employees after, I don't know, 10 years? So she has 10 years to make back that investment, plus a certain risk bonus, plus whatever opportunity cost she incurred starting the business. Now I don't know how many balance sheets and profit and loss statements you have seen for businesses like this, but I can tell you that no sane person would ever attempt to do this.

I'm not even sure why I'm responding, really.

[jsprogrammer]

"Because it's his"

You pulled out a Nazi analogy on me last time, so this time I'll pull out a (more apt) slaveholder analogy.

Why should a slaveholder get the labor of a slave in perpetuity? By your logic, it's simple: because it's his. Most of the world has moved beyond that flavor of opportunistic logic and we'll eventually get past the current flavor of the century.

"Does an orchard owner only 'own' the apples from his trees if he has actively watered them?"

1) If the orchard doesn't get sufficient natural irrigation, then no the owner doesn't, simply by virtue of the trees not producing any fruit.

2) If the orchard does get sufficient irrigation (especially as a result of another's labor), then the orchard "owner" doesn't have much claim to the fruit. Yes, the owner may pull out a deed chain that goes back to a grant from the US government, or a Queen/King of the British Empire and attempt to argue that gives him absolute ownership over the fruit. The owner might even convince most with that historical argument. Depending on the exact circumstances in question, I might argue the claim is laughable.

"In the 'plan' you are defending, she would have to give the ownership of that salon to her employees after, I don't know, 10 years?"

I'm not defending a plan, I merely asked a question. I don't know what the specifics could, or should, be. It's a slightly different model to think about that allows for a more inclusive economy.

Anyway, in your example, Mary would still retain ownership, assuming she contributed real labor to the enterprise. Mary would just also be sharing ownership with all of the other people who also made that enterprise possible, instead of purely exploiting the other contributors for her own personal profit.

"I'm not even sure why I'm responding, really."

Slightly curious? It's OK to explore taboos. Sometimes you find out everyone else was full of shit.