[bibabo]

Some notes:

1. Greece is talking about Germany because it helps mobilize masses. Germany does not decide on it's on on this nor is the most agressive player. Most northern and eastern countries are more agressive in their opinion against Greece. But it helps to mobilize Greek masses with a simple enemy.

2. Greece has defaulted have a dozen times in modern times. This is the Greek way of doing things and will continue, whatever the EU, Germany or the IWF thinks and does.

3. People in Greece don't think of taxes as something you have to pay. Many Greeks stopped paying taxes the last months in anticipation of a new government. This will not change and is the main driver for Greek defaults.

[atmosx]

Some counter-notes:

1. That's b*shit. It's Germany all way. The Fins and Dutch are easy to bend.

2. Germany has defaulted 3 times in the last 100 years. The Marshall plan was issued in 1948, otherwise now Germany would be worse than you date to imagine + wars damages to Greece were never paid.

3. Why don't you come live in Greece and find out. Try to deal with the state, then run a business WITHOUT tax-evading in this environment. Then share your knowledge, show us how you did it.

[bibabo]

1. The Baltic states, Poland, everyone except the southern countries (and I assume Spain with a thriving economy in 2014/2015 will join the club when unemployment drops) is on the same page. But as an excellent demagogue Tsipras knows he needs a simple enemy (Germany) to rally the mob.

2. Yes Germany defaulted, but did not make it it's modus operandi.

Excellent that you've brought up the Marshall plan:

The Marshall plan was essentially the same as what the EU imposes on Greece: "The Marshall Plan required a lessening of interstate barriers, a dropping of many petty regulations constraining business, and encouraged increase productivity, labour union membership, and the adoption of modern business procedures." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Where it differed: Beside that the Marshall Plan required European countries (beside Germany e.g. France, Britain, essentially everyone else) to buy from US companies: "Much of the Marshall Plan aid would be used by the Europeans to buy manufactured goods and raw materials from the United States and Canada. [...] The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States" (Same source)

Last interesting tidbit from the Marshall plan "The first substantial aid went to Greece and Turkey in January 1947". (Same source)

Indeed Greece got nearly twice the money from the Marhsall plan per person compared to Germany.

(For comparision Germany got 1.5B, Greece 0.4B, UK 3.3B, France 2.3B)

2. On war damages: I agree they were not paid and I agree with you on moral grounds, but I'm not sure it is economically relevant. The billions from the EU and the (2015 Euro) Marshall plan did not help, so I would not assume paying war damages would put Greece in a different situation. Except perhaps this makes Germany (see 1) a nice enemy.

While we're at war damages, I don't think Greece has paid war damages for any of the wars it started over the last 2500 years. The invasion of Turkey, the baltic war or going back to the support of Alexander the Great - I wonder if Greece paid war damages to Iran for that. Or to Italy for the occupation and exploitation of Sicily (or the other colonies when Greece was an imperialistic colonial power house). So while I agree that Germany should have paid damages on moral grounds, this is a very slippery slope.

3. Tax cheaters always find moral explainations for their behaviour.

[atmosx]

Germany defaulted 3 times in 100 years, you can find the dates on Google (if you can't let me know, I'll help you). Greece has defaulted 3 times (actually 4 counting 2010).

I'd say it's a modus operandi. One even might assume that making world wars is a modus operandi given the fact that it happened twice the last century.

> 3. Tax cheaters always find moral explainations for their behaviour.

So does anyone else[1] [2] [3] (there are least another 4 well known cases).

[1] https://anestis.quora.com/Links-to-credible-sources-about-Gr...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal

[3] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military...

[bibabo]

About the modus operandi: Greece in years of financial crisis

http://uk.businessinsider.com/greece-spends-90-years-in-defa...

[antman]

The Marshall plan in Greece included a huge sum to buying weapons to fend off communism which were not useful and did not go to any Greek. There was no industrial development in Greece. That was not the case in Germany, it got the funds and more importantly the new technology for steel production that helped the Germany. Germans were needed as strong stopping force against the Communists. I dont know if at that early stages it benefited the German people.

[bibabo]

Some notes:

1. From the payment date of 1947 it looks more like it went into the Greek civil war - fought by Greeks against Greeks (1946-1949). Tough decision to have another war after devastating WWII. 2. Germany bought weapons for the newly built "Bundeswehr" - most of them from the US.

[antman]

It was actually Greeks fighting Nazi collaborators who had changed allegiance and had become britsh friendly. That government was not elected and was flown in from the british hq in cairo. A forced colonial debt.

[bibabo]

You are quick with calling everybody a 'Nazi', aren't you?

[peterfirefly]

On the other hand, most of the German war reparations after WWI should probably be repaid. The exception is whatever Germany paid to Belgium, which should be augmented with reparations from France and Great Britain.

(And I assume you meant Balkan instead of Baltic.)

[bibabo]

I agree Germany should pay war reperations. As should Greece to Turkey and the Balkan for their invasions there, as should France to Germany for the napoleonic wars, Sweden to my hometown where they've killed nearly everyone and razed the city, the US for Vietnam to Laos. All the colonial powers should pay what they stole from their colonies, the UK to India, France to Africa. The US to the Philipines. France and the UK should pay and clean up the mess they've created in the middle east. I totally agree.

[bibabo]

@atmosx: So your point is, only WW reperations need to be paid, if you invade a neighbour and massacre the people there, you needn't? Looks a little too specialized to be a general moral rule.

[atmosx]

There is a reason the WW is called like that but you choose to bypass that. I understand, after all you created an account just to comment on the topic didn't you?

Anyway, I've had enough feeding trolls. Won't comment on the topic anymore, it's hot enough as it is.

[bibabo]

[Added] The US should return the land to the natives.

[atmosx]

LOL, you can go as back as Sparta if you like but the fact remains: NO other country started 2 WWs.

[peterfirefly]

The German battles in WWI were defensive. That they happened outside the borders of Germany doesn't change that.