[hammerdr]

This is easy to beat: just go to the source. If there's a howling white man going on about injustice and how he's going to tell you about the struggles of women of color, First Nations and Imperialism.. ignore that person. Go talk to a (well.. several, actually) woman of color, member of a First Nation or a nation ravaged by European and/or American imperialism.

"But what can I do as a white man/white women/generally privileged person?" - Amplify. Your voice unjustly carries more weight than that of other people. If you can be the "Retweeters" of Social Justice, you'll be doing a lot of good. Just be sure to retweet the people with firsthand knowledge.

[jacobolus]

It’s absurd to claim that white men can’t ever under any circumstances have anything to say about the struggles of other people, but there are certainly people who make such a claim.

As one example, my father, an anthropologist/historian in his 60s who spent his whole career and life befriending, interviewing, translating, and writing about indigenous rural peasants in southern Mexico, and probably knows as much or more about their history and circumstances as anyone alive (in an intellectual sense, if not precisely as lived personal experience, since he was never himself a destitute peasant) was told by a 30-year-old recent Ph.D from a well-off family (who had literally never worked a job outside academia, and spent her entire life living in rich US suburbs) that he had no right to comment on the circumstances of indigenous rural peasants, “the subaltern” to use her term, because he he was a privileged member of the hegemonic class, whereas she could, as a Latina.

[hammerdr]

I agree with everything you said.

I was specifically speaking about people that pontificate about things they have no legitimate claim to have experienced. Being a Latin@ in the United States doesn't legitimize your claim to speak about rural peasants of Mexico (though, if your family has roots there you may have lingering first hand accounts that can color the discussion more than those without).

In fact, historians are one of the people I would consider a source, especially if their words are born from the interactions and studies done from interacting with real people. They make it their life's work to understanding the situation in which people live.

Also, everyone makes mistakes and/or embellishments. I make mistakes. People in their own experiences get caught up in those experiences instead of the truth. Historians get caught up in their own narrative of truthiness instead of truth. Skepticism and an open mind are great tools toward enlightenment.

So, yeah, sometimes white men can be more legitimate than others in their viewpoints. But far too often the voices of the privileged and uninformed drown out the voices of experience and truth. That's the tragedy.

[vacri]

So, I hung out on a forum called 'stuff white people do' for a while. I wanted to find out more about racism, and the forum host was white, along with the denizens being a mixed group (I didn't want to stick my nose into a place where it wasn't wanted).

Anyway, this exact thing you suggest was something that they explicitly had articles against. "PoC are tired of being asked about their experiences. Go read a book first, don't ask them". I was scolded by the host for suggesting that "asking people as a first resort over picking up a book" was a human thing, not a white thing born of privilege, and I was scolded for it. Several of the PoC in the forum were quite clear on how they felt (poorly) about being asked of their experience by people not familiar with it.

Until I hit that site, I thought 'white apologism' was a myth. But boy, if you self-identified as white and didn't meekly talk cap-in-hand about how you sucked, you were berated. My favourite post was where the moderator asked what could be done to improve the site, and myself (white male) and an asian female said the same thing (both dispassionately): that we felt we held different opinions to the mainstream of the site, and it was difficult to be heard. She had a number of users encouraging her to post more and feel welcome. I got read the riot act and was nearly banned from the site.

It's very much worth noting I did learn a lot from some of the users that site, and I certainly wouldn't tar others in the field from my experiences there, but boy, arseholes can come from all directions. Some of the users were actually interested in discussion and I did learn a lot from those (one of whom was the woman above), but the moderator was an utter moron. I felt sad because these are important issues, and that moderator and his ilk were more interested in shriving guilt and hand-wringing than finding equitable solutions.

Anyway, long waffle short: not all people of colour appreciate being asked about their experiences by well-meaning naifs.

[hammerdr]

Thanks for the story. It's something to consider when being conscientious about these things.

I think a possible difference is that asking someone to share their experience directly invokes some kind of entitlement on the part of the asker.

But, I don't think that there is anything wrong with amplifying the messages of those underrepresented [1]. Many people with true experience are talking, but have trouble getting that message heard.

[1] With their permission. Don't shuttle around someone's personal story without permission. It can be damaging in ways that you're not aware.

[kelnos]

I think a possible difference is that asking someone to share their experience directly invokes some kind of entitlement on the part of the asker.

This is something I really don't get. This attitude seems so dysfunctional and counterproductive. If I ask a question about someone's experiences, it's because I'm interested in learning more about that person. If they're not comfortable talking about it with me, for whatever reason, they need only say so, and I'll understand and not pursue it.

I believe in general I'm entitled to ask questions (with a gut-check as to how personal the question might be vs. how well I know the person, which might cause me to decide not to ask), and the other person is entitled to decline to answer. That's just how polite social interaction works.

[javert]

This comment is incredibly racist, not to mention problematic on several other counts.

Racism is the view that the content of your mind is determined by your race. The Nazis believed that, and so does the person I am responding to.

Interestingly, Marx said something very similar: that the content of your mind is determined by your class. This is why large swathes of people have to be either wiped out or "re-educated" in Marxist countries.