[tessierashpool]

when I was a kid, we had a pet dog who turned out to be half-wolf. when we learned he was half-wolf, we treated him differently, and a ton of serious behavioral problems vanished instantly.

these researchers had their dogs and wolves treated identically, and concluded that "even after being raised by humans, wolves simply do not see humans as potential social partners."

but my interpretation is that they learned that wolves, after being raised by humans as if they were dogs, do not see humans as potential social partners. and this distinction matters, because my family's pet dog/wolf saw us all as his subordinates, until we learned the different way to act around a wolf.

if you show a wolf tons and tons of affection, like it was a dog, it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it.

all these researchers really learned here, in my opinion, was that if you communicate to a wolf that you are not to be taken seriously as a partner, it will not take you seriously as a partner.

I think the possibility absolutely remains open that researchers who had bothered to do their homework first might be able to produce results where the wolves looked to the humans for help just as often as the dogs did.

if you baby a wolf in the way that we baby dogs in 2015, you are probably not creating an entirely realistic simulation of the context within which wolves and humans first began collaborating.

[drzaiusapelord]

>it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it.

This is pretty common with "bad dogs." It turns out we just can't remove all the wolf-aspects from dogs 100% of the time. It took me a while to learn that my dog is always jockeying for position and affection, to her, is submission. She's not half-wolf, but seem seems very wolf-like. (recessive genetic trait?) I have to follow a fairly strict dominance regimen to keep her from asserting dominance and barking or even biting me. When I slack off, she becomes more aggressive. Frankly, its a hassle.

The more I think about domesticated pets, the less I like the idea. So many dogs are put down for behavioral issues and most pets suffer from neglect and even mental illness. I believe there was a study that most dogs are mentally ill, probably from being housebound for so long. There's something really unnatural about the whole thing. I don't think we're going to replace this dog after she dies. As much as I dislike PETA's antics, I think their official (but almost never followed by its members) policies of ending pet ownership makes a lot of sense.

[mejarc]

There's a moving photo essay in _Harper's_ magazine this month about a sanctuary for wolf-dog hybrids. A lot of animals end up discarded because they're expected to be "doggy."

[stevenspasbo]

> if you show a wolf tons and tons of affection, like it was a dog, it thinks you're trying to kiss its ass and take a subordinate position to it.

I'm curious, what behaviors did you change? Did you have to be conscious of how much you pet it?

[tessierashpool]

Yeah, you can't pet it as much as you would with a dog. Instead, when you first come home, you put your hand out, just a bit above its nose, so the dog/wolf can touch your hand with its nose. It's this very peaceful and utterly simple ritual whereby the dog/wolf acknowledges that you're in charge.

When my dad and I started doing this, the dog/wolf calmed down incredibly. Pretty sure he had thought that he was in charge of our pack, but the responsibility was stressing him out because had no idea how he was supposed to organize our hunting, and couldn't figure out where we went during the day, either.

You also can't let it beg, because it doesn't really understand begging as begging. You have to eat first, then give the dog/wolf their food, the same way that I think you do with a Rottweiller.

[hyp0]

There was a fad a while back, less popular now, that you need to assert dominance, in raising all dogs. Sounds like it's been nuanced to wolf-like dogs.

At least the study shows a genetic behavioural difference between dogs and wolves.

[tessierashpool]

actually a lot of those ideas come from research around wolves which is very very discredited. they overgeneralized from things which were true of wolves in captivity but untrue of wild wolves.

but yes, you do kind of have to have a tougher attitude.

one day we got a new puppy. puppy ran up to the dog/wolf and barked at him, tried to get him to play with her. bit his tail to get his attention. he turned around, grabbed her head in his jaws, and held her head against the floor for at least 30 seconds. then he just walked away.

my suspicion is that domesticated animals have less adrenaline or something. there's some kind of hardwired seriousness in a wolf, where dogs seem a lot more daffy.