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by seldo 6083 days ago
(I also commented on the article, but nobody seems to be commenting over there, so reposting...)

The advantage of statically typed RDBMS that he's leaving out here are (a) storage optimization (b) query optimization (as jawngee has already noted).

You could get halfway to simulating a dynamically-typed RDBMS by declaring all your columns as, say, VARCHAR(5000). You could store strings, integers, floats, dates, etc. all in there pretty simply. However, they would use a lot more storage space as strings than they would as native data types (e.g. integer 1000 is one byte, string '1000' is 4). Over a large data set that would really add up.

Secondly, when doing queries, your comparison operators (e.g. WHERE date > 2009-07-06) would be way less efficient as string comparisons than native type comparisons.

I don't want to be dismissive and curmudgeonly about this, but over and over what I hear from people enthusiastic about NoSQL solutions is that they solve the current problems of RDBMS, while forgetting all the great features that we have spent the last 30 years building into database systems.

The current "limitations" of SQL-based systems are often in fact age-old trade-offs that we made, but people have forgotten the positive benefits of those trade-offs. The reason databases are statically typed is because that saves storage space and processing time. The reason there's a standardized, domain-specific language that you have to learn is because having to learn a completely new API and mental model every time you want to access a data store from a new vendor is inefficient. Oh, and the reason SQL is so complicated is because relational algebra is complicated.

Sure, SQL and RDBMS have their limitations. They're not the right tool for every job, and they are not even 100% perfect at the jobs where they are the right tool. But too often I hear people saying "fuck SQL!" simply because they don't want to learn it, and because they're too early on in their little pet project to realize the scalability problems a NoSQL system is going to run into that RDBMS solved 20+ years ago.

4 comments

> The reason databases are statically typed is because that saves storage space and processing time

The problem with this argument is that when I can slap several TB into every node in my db cluster the storage cost issue is basically moot. When it is cheaper to buy ten small boxes than one beefy server the processing time and query optimization issue also starts to come into question. At some point soon, and we may have already passed that point, the cost of centralizing db queries through a small number of expensive, highly tuned servers necessary to maintain the pillars of the RDBMS model will be outpaced by the benefits of abandoning both optimizations in favor of being able to use a small, cheap fleet of boxes running a distributed database.

The tradeoffs that were made several decades ago when the RDBMS and SQL ascended to their current dominance may have made sense at the time, but a lot has changed since then. You may try to delude yourself into thinking that there are "scalability problems a NoSQL system is going to run into that RDBMS solved 20+ years ago" but given the fact that almost all of these systems were designed with an eye on under what conditions RDBMS failed and in light of decades of research into distributed systems and scalability that did not exist when SQL/RDBMS emerged I find it hard to believe that there are scalability problems that RDBMS solved that NoSQL systems will run into. Hell, most of them were designed to solve specific scalability failures in big data systems where RDBMS fell over and died.

You're putting a lot of faith into this. The fact is that performance, scalability, features, and correctness are a trade-off. RDBMS is optimized for certain conditions and these NoSQL databases are optimized for other conditions. NoSQL databases are horrible at things that RDBMS's do extremely well and vice-versa. NoSQL isn't some magic discovery -- of course they're going to run into problems that RDBMS solved years ago!

Your argument for small boxes seems to be the same argument for one large box. My (extremely average) desktop has a terabyte of storage in it -- why do I need a bunch of boxes running a distributed database? One big server is a hell of a lot easier to manage than a fleet (a fleet!) of small boxes.

You make a very valid point, and it's one I do think about. I try not to bash NoSQL, because it does make sense sometimes, but there's a recent tide of "SQL is dead, long live NoSQL" that ignores the fact that RDBMS are a superior solution in some cases. Really, I think most people agree that RDBMS are sometimes better, and the argument revolves around how often "sometimes" is.

I don't doubt that NoSQL systems solve scalability problems people experience when they use (or rather, mis-use) RDBMS. My point is that they are making trade-offs in terms of storage, data integrity, etc. that they may not be considering, because those things used to be "free" with RDBMS so they weren't a concern.

It's certainly true that RDBMS were born in a very different age in terms of expense of both storage and processing. As with MapReduce, with is an astonishingly inefficient but extremely fast and scalable way of crunching big volumes of data, NoSQL systems may be making use of huge leaps in the availability of resources to prioritize speed and scalability over other concerns.

However, as I mentioned, there seem to be lot of newbie developers who aren't thinking about NoSQL vs. RDBMS in these terms ("speed" vs. "data integrity", say) but instead in terms of "easy" vs. "hard", or even just "new hotness" vs. "old and busted". As a result they may be avoiding one set of problems solved by NoSQL only to run into a totally different set solved by RDBMS, without considering which is more important for their app.

integer 1000 is one byte

What sort of byte? Mine only represent integers from 0 to 255.

More seriously, I don't buy your implied argument that plain text representations are less compact. Whether or not this is true depends more on the specifics of your domain and the system you use. For much of the data I work with the strongly typed database representation is often larger then the plain untyped (ASCII) source.

I'll bite. Use the right tool for the job. I think that's what things have always boiled down to. It just so happened that sql was the right tool for the job a lot of the time in the web app space. It still is.

But now we're at a place where there are a lot of options. You can use CouchDB, Tokyo cabinet/tyrant, redis, mongodb, and a host of other alternative storage engines. You don't have to drop your sql database, you can supplement it and take some of the load off of your current db.

I think the whole "right tool for the job" thing takes on new meaning these days. The right tool for the job could now be a combination of sql, mongo, and tokyo cabinet. It depends on the job, the app, and the requirements. But I wouldn't dismiss any NoSQL option so quick.

I don't think he is dismissing NoSQL options at all. Rather, what I think his point is (and know mine is) is that many people recently tend to dismiss SQL options out of hand for various reasons, often just the newness of NoSQL.

Sometimes NoSQL is truly better, but sometimes SQL is better. Neither should be neglected out of hand.

I'm curious...what about having optionally statically typed databases? Like so you can turn on the type checking and optimizations on a per-table basis?