[williamcotton]

Similarly, to argue that the Internet is anything other than the most effective device for the production of the same humanistic, intellectual material that Wieseltier bemoans the loss of is to demonstrate an utter unfamiliarity with the internet and how it works.

Well I'm very familiar with how the Internet works and I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement so, to use a "logical fallacy" against you, I believe you're making an "argument to authority".

BTW, logical fallacies are a rhetorical device that attempt to deny the subjective experience in it's entirety by presuming that all interactions can be reduced to a set of objective axioms. I'm only mentioning this because you leaped to the old "strawman" device in your second sentence, and that you seem to have the generally pleasant demeanor of an esteemed Student of Lesswrong, and that this style of argument and the worldview that it presupposes are being directly addressed by the author of the article.

Can you explain how the Internet is so effective at producing "humanistic, intellectual material"? From my perspective knowing a number of writers, musicians and artists, it seems that professional industries are suffering big time. The network of agents, managers, publicists, production and support staff have steadily been disappearing because the revenue streams that supported them are drying up. This means that artists are having to take up all this slack instead of just focusing on their work. Obviously the work suffers.

I'm sure that there will be a solution but in the meantime things are pretty shit. It takes big and complex systems quite some time to reorganize.

Get ready for an argument to authority here: Maybe you're so ignorant to humanistic and intellectual pursuits that you can't see what is going on?

[hammerzeit]

I'm sure there's a point you're making here, but I'm not interested in finding it among all the insults you're slinging my way. Chill out, dude.

[williamcotton]

without a whit of evidence wouldn't pass freshman comp

that he's accorded greater privilege demonstrates just how high the shit must have been piled at The New Republic's stables.

This narrative is, frankly, bullshit.

Hey buddy, if you wanna have chilled out conversation you might want to take a look at how your own approach might affect how things progress.

[dang]

You're both breaking the HN guidelines by being personally abrasive. Please don't.

[williamcotton]

Really, saying that "maybe you might be ignorant" is breaking the HN guidelines? I think the more likely explanation is that I'm breaking the HN party line and quite clearly pointing out that the ethos that the author was referring to is quite rampant here in Silicon Valley. If we're both engaging in unethical behavior, where are his downvotes?

This place is a circle jerk of anti-intellectualism and smug arrogance. Juvenile phrases about how anyone suffering these days deserves their fate. "Why didn't they just learn JavaScript!?".

Oh, but if it's the poor and blue collar there will be some pity for their fate, barely masked contempt for the unwashed masses. But the middle class? Eviscerated and this forum spits on their grave. The story goes that they squandered their privileged position in the world.

No one can write a proper response. No one can address the content in the author's essay because there is no respect nor understanding for what has been written. Like frothing lobotomized acolytes of McLuhan the only mantra is that the "median is the only message".

Human subjectivity is reduced to a cold bowl of porridge. Everyone's opinions are equally dismissible. The only thing that matters is what can be quantified. The size of one's paycheck takes precedence. Further irony is that everyone thinks they are "creatives" and better than those mongrels in finance or law. This is just our generations version of the Wolf of Wall Street but in the lambs clothes of the globally cultured. "We teach people to code so they can better their economic stature and increase their quantifiable measurements and therefor become a better and happier person!".

Downvotes and upvotes... those ARE part of the problem! They destroy dialog. It turns what could be healthy discussion in an American Idol like popularity contest. "Vote next week for your favorite asshole!". You think it is an ethical device? Have you ever noticed that tptacek, the holder of the most "karma" on HN is basically a troll? My language is in no way more inflammatory than his. He's just got the foot soldiers to put people in their place.

All that these things do is turn forums in to an echo chamber. The other approach is to use active moderation to get rid of the trolls. But that's not the agenda. That's not the belief. The church of quantification must attempt to remove all subjective and therefor inefficient human biases.

Label them "gatekeepers" and convince the world you're doing it a service when you instead shift the power to secretive algorithms that are controlled by a small cabal of wealthy elites.

DOWNVOTE THIS!

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[tptacek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8zQHO40Cys

The funny thing is, personal attacks aside, I actually agree with a lot of what you have to say, especially about karma and about the impact of the Internet on artists. And on that latter point, you & I do in fact disagree sharply with the majority of the site. You pick weird enemies.

[williamcotton]

I will get hella defensive about people getting bullied, those down on their luck or otherwise marginalized. To a fault.

I have no inherent respect for the powerful although I will sometimes shamefully choose not to bite the hand that feeds me.

I tend to agree with most of the points you make as well. I should stop ragging on you. I'm sorry. You're not a troll. You're just terse. The Hemingway of commenters. I hope you don't drink as much as he did.