[cthalupa]

>Some of their products are worse than snake oil. When powering off, Schiit's Asgard amp can output enough DC to damage some headphones.

Early versions of the product came without a power relay, with the implication being you should have the volume pot all the way down, and unplug your headphones before ever turning the amp on or off. That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment, which both Stoddard and Moffat came from. Not so much in the market that they were targeting with the Asgard.

Since then, they've added a relay to all of their amps that need one, and have offered to add one to any amp that was sold prior to this for free.

Stoddard goes over the incident with the Schiit side of the story at http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of...

NWAvGuy wasn't actually banned for his interactions with Schiit, but due to the very strict advertising rules at Head-Fi. http://www.head-fi.org/t/584763/the-wizard-appreciation-thre...

The Asgard never actually permanently damaged or destroyed any headphones. The Schiit Lyr, however, did kill a $1.5k pair of Ultrasones Ed 8s, but this was due to an actual defect with a specific unit. Schiit replaced the Ultrasone and the Lyr for the owner.

[ferongr]

>That is fairly standard precaution with the higher end of audio equipment

No it's not, that's called bad design. Unless high-end now stands for "poorly designed gear sold for 10 times what they're worth".

[superuser2]

>No it's not

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I've worked in concert halls with half-million-dollar sound systems. You don't flip the power on upstream devices (DSPs, boards, etc.) while the amplifiers are powered on.

In nice, modern installs the system integrator will usually have installed a sequencer. You turn a key and what is essentially a glorified rackmount power strip emits a series of clicks as relays on a timer power on sections of the rack in a safe order. Otherwise it is up to the engineer to start up and shut down according to the correct procedure. A mistake will not necessarily damage equipment, but you will hear it pop - which may be anywhere from subtle to deafening. It is a dumb - and not unheard of - way to blow a speaker.

This is becoming less of an issue as digital audio networking (Dante, etc.) takes hold - there may be no analog connections between the mic itself and the amplifier - but it is absolutely standard with analog interconnections.

[cthalupa]

I don't know of many big ticket amps you can turn on before you turn on your big ticket preamps and don't run a risk of having an expensive bad day.

Why? Because you are amplifying the turn on signal from the source or preamp.

Every time you have ever turned audio equipment on and heard that thump or pop, you are hearing the same phenomenon that ran the risk of damaging headphones left plugged in. It just so happens in most cases the amount of power involved isn't significant, but it does become so once you enter the realm of high powered amplifiers.

There's nothing inherently wrong about a design that doesn't include a muting relay because it is supposed to be understood how the device is operated, in the same way there's nothing inherently wrong about a car design that doesn't lock the gas tank while the car is online and running - you are supposed to know you shouldn't fill up your gas tank while the vehicle is on, and if you do so, there are risks. (Yes, sparks from the engine compartment of running cars can and do cause fires while refueling, albeit rarely)

[ferongr]

The volume control operates on the preamp section, the thump of amplifiers is usually generated on the power amplifier section, usually a sign of a bipolar power supply that at startup and power down rises/lowers voltage unevenly, resulting in DC output to the speakers.

Turning down the volume will do nothing, you have to remove the load and in many cases (speakers) that's infeasible. Not to mention something like a brownout/power loss could end up damaging the transducer anyway.

Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.

[cthalupa]

>The volume control operates on the preamp section

I'm aware of this - you'll notice I mentioned the volume control specifically for the Schiit gear, and not preamps or power amps in general. If you're using separate preamps and amps, then yes, turning down the volume on the preamp isn't going to matter. With almost all headphone setups, you are doing all volume control on the amp though, and none on the dac - it's pretty rare for there to be a dedicated preamp in the chain when dealing with computer -> headphones.

>Turning down the volume will do nothing

Again, specifically referring to the Schiit gear here, with the volume control details being specifically from them. Sorry if there was confusion and it seemed as if I was saying this in general.

>Being "high-end" is no excuse, cut-off relays do not affect sound quality and they are not expensive. It's just either laziness or advertising to people that don't know better. Again, there is no reason not to install shut-off relays.

Plenty of the best gear out there will include power up sequence instructions - Amps being last on, first off, is something that has been pretty standard for decades. Like James Bongiorno said, even if a muting relay is installed, why tempt fate for no real gain? I'm sure I've got Cary and Audio Research manuals around somewhere with their power up sequences printed in them - are you going to accuse them of shoddy design as well?

My issue isn't with the relays - I'd love it if everything came with one. I don't think there's a downside to having them. (Though habit will keep me using the same power sequence I've been using for forever)

My issue is you've decided that anything that lacks said muting relay is poorly designed or not worth the price:

>No it's not, that's called bad design. Unless high-end now stands for "poorly designed gear sold for 10 times what they're worth"

It's audio equipment. Shouldn't the ultimate judgment on the quality of design be how it actually functions in it's intended purpose, and not whether or not it's the most convenient? Companies have been selling great sounding gear (that measures well) and lasts decades that lack a relay. I simply can't agree that lacking an optional piece that exists only to protect someone from something that they can perform manually overrides every other aspect of the product's design and makes it a poorly designed product.

[seanp2k2]

There's also nothing wrong with cars which don't pop the lock back open if the car is off and the key is in the ignition, except that when such a technology exists, is pretty cheap / easy to implement, and can save users potentially a lot of trouble, why would you not implement it?

I would argue that there is something wrong with amps / pre-amps which pop when turned on: it's sloppy design which doesn't even save much cost, and the risk is huge for end-users. Humans make mistakes. I don't think anyone would propose that a checklist be used every time you want to turn on your hi-fi because some EE (or very likely some Chinese ODM) wanted to save a few wires and a few cents.

[Curmudgel]

> There's also nothing wrong with cars which don't pop the lock back open if the car is off and the key is in the ignition, except that when such a technology exists, is pretty cheap / easy to implement, and can save users potentially a lot of trouble, why would you not implement it?

If you drive an armored car, then you wouldn't want the doors to automatically unlock whenever you put it in park. An ICE agent was killed three years ago in Mexico because of this feature.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/armored-suv...

[cthalupa]

I should be more clear: I am a fan of relays. I think everything should have them for convenience and peace of mind.

But at the same time, I'm not willing to dismiss a product just because it lacks an optional feature that would have made it more convenient for me. I'm not going to say something is poorly designed and not worth the cost if every other thing it is meant to do, it does well. I'm more concerned with the core features of the product than added niceties.

My only issues were the idea that this was something that wasn't standard fare (since it is, though the publicity related to this incident has caused quite a few manufacturers to switch to including relays on everything - which I'm perfectly okay with!) and that it is somehow damning to the product design on the whole.

If I buy a Lotus Elise, there's a lot of nice functionality that probably wouldn't cost much to implement that I could find on cheaper cars that I'll be missing out on - but those weren't things I was looking for when I purchased the Elise.

[Hydraulix989]

"NWAvGuy wasn't actually banned for his interactions with Schiit, but due to the very strict advertising rules at Head-Fi."

And Al Capone was nabbed for tax invasion. If they want to lock you up, they will.

[cthalupa]

Have you spent much time on the Head-Fi forums? People get banned all the time for advertising things who aren't at all related to any sort of feud with forum sponsors.

nwavguy was specifically told to stop advertising in the manner he was, and he didn't. Plenty of other people have gotten the same PM from jude.

[dsissitka]

He wasn't banned for advertising.

  It wasn't his posts.  Yesterday, he sent a hostile, unsolicited private message to one of our moderators that was forwarded to me.  Among other things, in that message he brought up his attorney, and I have no patience for those who resort to what several moderators (myself included) interpreted as a legal threat (however veiled) as a bullying tactic.
  
  For that, it's at least a tentative ban for him.  And that's as much as I'll say about it, because we generally do not discuss bans publicly.

Jude @ http://www.head-fi.org/t/562736/what-causes-this-amp-related...

[cthalupa]

Ah, yep, you're right - it's been quite some time since everything happened, and I misremembered it slightly. Though, what ultimately set it in motion was the advertising.

  What he took exception to was my request that 
  (a) he remove the link to his blog from his signature, and 
  (b) that he refrain from linking to his blog frequently.

  When he was asked these things, he took great exception to
  the request; and, not surprisingly, even more so when the
  links were removed. What he doesn't post 
  (and what I have the messages to prove, as I'm sure does he) 
  is that I told him he was more than welcome to post his
   information here, instead of posting teasers here and
   then linking to his site to finish. I told him at some
   point he might be able to do that here; but, again, not
   before he had shown that one of his primary reasons for
   being here wasn't to redirect to his blog.