[krapp]

A "configuration language" by definition (in my opinion) should not be Turing complete. A configuration language is for storing state - key/value pairs or simple structures of primitive types, nothing more (or as little more as necessary), nothing less.

Once you introduce enough complexity (branching, recursion) you've just created another application with global variables for the main application to access - a capability that will probably almost never be desired (see XML), and the ability to unserialize into functions or otherwise executable code, which will also almost never be desired (XML, Yaml, probably a lot of things.)

[chriswarbo]

> A "configuration language" by definition (in my opinion) should not be Turing complete.

One of the key insights of LISP is that s-expressions are a simple, universal format. Yes, they can be used for code, but they can also be used for static configuration data. In fact, LISP originally used s-expressions solely for data; code was meant to be written with m-expressions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression ). Once `eval` was implemented, s-expressions could be used for code and data, so the idea of m-expressions was abandoned.

> A configuration language is for storing state - key/value pairs or simple structures of primitive types, nothing more (or as little more as necessary), nothing less.

The trouble with "universal" formats like this is that there's no universal agreement on what's a "primitive type" (what happens when I write `0.1`? Are booleans primitive, or should we use `0` and `1`?) and what's a "simple structure" (can I make a circular list?). That in itself wouldn't be too bad, but these languages tend to hard-code special syntax to particular types and structures, so any types or structures we may want to add must either be second-class citizens, or would require hacking the parser.

[krapp]

I suppose you would have to draw a in the sand somewhere as far as types go, and it depends on the language. I know TOML allows dates as a type, which seems useful, but then you could just stick to ints and use Unix timestamps, I guess it depends on how strict you want to be.

But to me, a primitive type at least can't evaluate to anything other than itself, and also doesn't include pointers or references. In Lisp terms I guess it would be an atom? Likely at least numeric values, booleans (in whatever form), chars and some kind of tainted string (tainted in that it can't be evaluated as code, even if you try to do so.)

>and what's a "simple structure" (can I make a circular list?)

A simple structure as I define it is a collection that contains primitive types, so not, like, an array of function pointers or anything. Array, struct, tuple, map, etc. I think a circular list as a type might be interesting and definitely useful (does it exist anywhere?) If I ever design a programming language that's one of the things I want to add.

[Houshalter]

The problem is there is a tendency for configuration languages to become Turing complete as they add more and more features. It would be preferable if they just started with something Turing complete. See here:

>Most projects seem to start out small with a few config items like where to write logs, where to look for data, user names and passwords, etc. But then they start to grow: features start to be able to be turned on or off, the timings and order of operations start to be controlled, and, inevitably, someone wants to start adding logic to it (e.g. use 10 if the machine is X and 15 if the machine is Y). At a certain point the config file becomes a domain specific language, and a poorly written one at that.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/648246/at-what-point-doe...

I like the idea of using Lua as a config language because it's pretty simple, lightweight, and can be sandboxed easily.

[sparkie]

The problem is when you want to base the "value" part of any of these key/value pairs off some other value, you can't compute any new value - and you wind up duplicating variables in the configuration files (or worse, over several configuration files). This leads to someone inventing a new configuration-to-configuration converter to do what could be done in a macro.

Key/Value pairs work in a rather limited portion of software, but most configuration formats are calling out for the ability to compute. Because they rarely work in practice, everyone forks the format to add their pet features, until some committee comes along and suggests "I know, I'll add all of your pet features into a universal format" - this thinking brought us to XML. Yaml, JSON and name-your-shitty-markup are continuations of this absurd line of thinking.

When TS says Lisp, he doesn't necessarily mean "configure the world in common lisp", but he's talking about S-expressions - which are a 'universal' way of encoding trees as text (without the element/attribute ambiguity), which you can chose to either treat as data or as code. The in memory representation of parsed s-expressions is equivalent to their textual representation (homoiconicity), which means that you can write code to operate on these structures using only the knowledge of the text layout, and not some extra knowledge your programming language might use for encoding it (ie, objects).

A configuration format using S-expressions need not be turing complete, as you can specify what should be data and what wants evaluating as code, if anything. You can place limits on what you want to be able to compute, by validating the input before evaluating it. As others have stated, the focus of configuration formats needs shifting from "syntactic flavor of the year" to proper validation of input. And the quickest path to validation of input is one where the parsing is automated - because Lisp does it for you.

[valw]

Would you agree to call Grunt a configuration tool?

I have found the fact that Grunt lets you write full-featured JavaScript quite useful. In 95% of cases, of course, you want to write your configuration in a declarative, JSON-like form, but I welcome the possibility of having full JS power in the few situations where non-trivial logic is needed. Another advantage, of course, is familiarity: I already know JavaScript.

However, what I really don't like is a declarative data language or some sort of DSL that starts adding some basic variable and control flow features. That's the best way to end up with a tool that's complicated, hard to reason about, and still unexpressive.

So to me, a good configuration language should be either a simple data language (such JSON), OR a simple, powerful, well-known programming language with good data structure literals to encourage a declarative style.

[krapp]

Certainly, but personally I would still like to keep logic out of configuration as much as possible.

If I had to pick an actual language for configuration I would probably pick Javascript, mostly because I like JSON's syntax.

My instinct would be to say that if you need non-trivial logic, you may have an issue elsewhere with separation of concerns, and should move that code somewhere else.

But I will concede there may be a cases I'm just not aware of where that's unavoidable. Almost everything I do involves json or ini files anyway so I haven't really worked on anything incredibly complex.

[vidarh]

My first and biggest issue with computation in configuration files is the moment you need to / want to manage that configuration with a tool.

In 30+ years I've never come across a case where logic has been necessary in configuration beyond very simple branching / inclusion logic, if that.

[eru]

If you are very careful, you can introduce some forms of recursion and branching without getting full Turing completeness.

[calibraxis]

Presumably they mean something like EDN/Fressian.