[RivieraKid]

Yeah, I've got a similar impression. The only 2 things I care about are 1) productivity (time to finish a task) 2) how pleasurable is it to use a language.

And I just don't find Haskell (or Lisp) to be as productive as many would suggest, even if you adjust for matureness of the ecosystem. (Note: I have a moderate experience with Lisp, very little experience with Haskell and these days mostly program in Java, Julia and Python.)

[akurilin]

I wrote the core of our system in Clojure a couple of years ago, which is pretty high in productivity and actually quite pleasant to work with. Unfortunately as the scale goes up (hundreds of web application routes, sharing code among multiple projects etc) it doesn't feel nearly as nice anymore, and having static typing turns out to be pretty handy.

Haskell to me felt exactly like what you described: I could get stuff done fast because of how few head-scratchers I'd experience. This is mostly due to type mismatches, and how much more well thought our my design needed to be upfront. I also really enjoyed the language because I could express fairly complex thoughts in a very succinct, and yet very readable fashion, mostly thanks to types being explicit and enforced at compile time. Code reuse and sharing across multiple applications is also a breeze, which is absolutely key once you get past the "single Rails app" stage and you start getting into two digits worth of tools, services and applications.

[RivieraKid]

Oh ok, I can be wrong about Haskell. BTW, I really like Ceylon, it's very statically safe (more than Haskell I'd say) and very pragmatic (unlike Haskell IMHO, it doesn't seem to focus on maximizing productivity).

[jimmyhmiller]

Ceylon looks interesting. Mind pointing me to some features you think make it more statically safe than haskell?

[RivieraKid]

I don't know if these are considered static safety features but:

* Statically safe metaprogramming.

* Well designed access rights (private, public).

I also really like the type system, very well designed.

[Ixiaus]

I think the only languages that are "statically safer" than Haskell are the theorem provers... (agda and coq come to mind)

Disclaimer: I do not have enough PL type theory under my belt to confidently make this argument.

[jbeja]

"I have a moderate experience with Lisp, very little experience with Haskell and these days mostly program in Java, Julia and Python"

I despise that people give their 2 cents for something they haven't experienced much.

[mikegioia]

You mean like everyone in this thread who has never written PHP but feels the need to bash it?

[RivieraKid]

Why? You assume that little experience with Haskell is not enough to make conclusions about its productivity. I disagree with this assumption, I think you can sometimes make a moderately confident conclusions from little experience. And I understand I can be wrong of course.

[codygman]

Can you list a few reasons you think Haskell isn't pragmatic?

[jbeja]

She can't, given how little experience she have with the language.

[RivieraKid]

It's "he".

[jbeja]

Use she to express it as person when I don't know the gender.

[imanaccount247]

>I just don't find Haskell ... to be as productive as many would suggest

>I have ... very little experience with Haskell

So, how would you know?

[RivieraKid]

I don't know with 100% certainity, but it's a moderately confident conclusion from my little experience.

[phamilton]

The point of graphs like these (aside from making a joke) is to describe the learning curve. These graphs admit that the beginning of haskell is a nightmare, but claim that eventually you have "unbounded" productivity.

It seems rather hard to evaluate the tail end from "little experience".

[Ixiaus]

It's an incorrect conclusion that requires further education and experience before you can be sure your subjective experience of productivity truly is that poor.

[hnriot]

please, this is getting old. Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are instead of just getting on with developing applications that actually do useful things efficiently.

[codygman]

I hope you are trolling. Most Haskeller's value getting things done over being clever and actually actively avoid being clever. In your other comment you point out that many of PHP detractors have not used it or have very little experience.

Do you have experience using haskell? If not, you are being hypocritical. Please stop.

[imanaccount247]

>Haskell is one of those languages for people who want to show off how clever they are

Yes, that's what banks are most known for. Showing off how clever they are and not doing anything useful. Facebook and google certainly fit that profile as well right?

[imanaccount247]

I am suggesting that your confidence is misplaced. Having little experience in something means you should have little confidence in your knowledge of that thing.

[RivieraKid]

> Having little experience in something means you should have little confidence in your knowledge of that thing.

Not always true, sometimes you can have a fairly good picture of something after a short time.