[fluidcruft]

You don't have to capture anything to make observations or replicas. It just has to be observable. Which gets back to "search". The nit I'm picking is what exactly the post finds special about "searches and seizures" vs "searches"

[acveilleux]

In this action, AT&T was compelled to fork their traffic to an NSA monitoring room. This was a step that added overhead that, I would think, exceeded mere observation.

It's not like they posted a man on a hill to watch the traffic go by (or a pair of blimps in MD...) They required AT&T's coöperation to proceed here. Like putting a checkpoint on the road.

[higherpurpose]

I think I understand what you're saying, you're saying that a search automatically implies a "seizure" as well, right? Unfortunately, I don't think the US gov thinks the same way. Right now they are trying to make a clear distinction between "collecting" and "searching". I was just trying to point out that even if those terms were separated, the 4th amendment specifically refers to collecting (seizing) the data as well. So they can't get away with the mass collection just by saying collection != searching.

[fluidcruft]

No, I'm saying that "seizure" means taking something away from someone. Duplicating something doesn't take anything away from anyone.

You could get into the old argument about IP theft about say copying vs stealing a movie. But even then, creating the concept of IP monopoly was explicitly granted by the Constitution, it doesn't arise from the 4th Amendment. If copying something is a "seizure" then why does the copyright clause even exist?

My interpretation of "search and seizure" is the situation that: you keep and possess private stuff that you secure at a location that you control, the government shows up at your place, takes all of your stuff back to their warehouse to look through at their leisure. The government has your papers and you no longer do.

That seems fundamentally and qualitatively different from what's happening when you choose to use someone else's telecommunications equipment. Now, instead of hanging on to your private secrets, you've decided to go ahead and scroll them onto postcards and toss them into the mail (for safe keeping? really?). And then after sending them out into the World, you're shocked that your secrets somehow got out of your bag! It defies common sense.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, if you write something on a postcard and drop it in the mail, that behavior clearly indicates that you do not consider the information you put on the postcard to be private.

[VexXtreme]

Your argument is completely disingenuous - same as the people who are nitpicking and torturing the language in the constitution in order to get what they want.

When people are using the internet, in some contexts there is a certain expectation of privacy, and in others, there is none. If I upload pictures to a public Facebook profile or a hosting website (such as imgur), I certainly don't expect that to be private. It's there and available for everyone to see/observe/collect/record/download/analyze/whatever. However, if I connect to a search provider using HTTPS, and the search provider vehemently claims they do not hand my data over to the government, I certainly don't expect the said provider to hand my data over to the government, or the government to try to subvert and crack the encryption between me and the website.

I think it's high time people stop trying to get what's unfair and immoral by trying to subvert the language. While you may eventually get what you want, it is corrupt and evil. No amount of legal "reinterpreting" changes that.

[fluidcruft]

It seems you make a rather large and unsubstantiated assumption that they are breaking encryption before obtaining authority to search the private content. The whole point of encryption is to remove trust from the communication channel. Encryption that fundamentally relies on messages being ephemeral is a fraud/farce/snake oil.

[VexXtreme]

I understand the individual words in your post but have no idea what you're actually trying to say. Have you thought about running for congress?

[splawn]

How can you observe data without loading it into memory first?

[fluidcruft]

How can you make a phone call or send an email without stuffing it into someone else's memory?