Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by rayiner 4193 days ago
Wearing a suit is a sign of respect to the court, and there's a rational justification for the convention.

Courts, you see, and federal courts in particular, don't really have any power. They have a few marshals, but by and large they're not directly in charge of the people with the guns. Courts have power only because everyone agrees to abide by their authority. Wearing a suit, standing when a judge enters the room, addressing the judge as "your Honor," is all part of a ritual where we acknowledge the solemnity of the proceeding and collectively reinforce the binding authority of the court and its judgments. The details of the ritual are, of course, arbitrary. What matters is that everyone partakes in the ritual.

The practical significance is this: if the judge rules against the government in this case, the executive branch will have a choice to follow the order or not. It is indeed a choice--the executive branch has all the guns, after all. The price of ignoring the order is a loss of moral authority and public support. The purpose of the ritual surrounding the proceedings is to make this expensive. You want people to be offended and feel violated that anyone would ignore authority that they collectively sanctioned by engaging in this ritual.

2 comments

What about the other costs of the ritual? That is, the implicit disenfranchisement of those that cannot afford, whether literally, or as a result of differing social norms, to abide by these arbitrary practices. Given what the court system stands for, namely equality and fairness, how can one reconcile the preservationist and exclusionary nature of these standards with those ideals?

Frankly speaking, I don't think that a whole generation (or several) of people wearing t-shirts in court is going to do much to change the judiciary's ability to reign in the executive. If current practice is any indication, the executive will flout judicial decisions just as it already does with legislative ones: behind closed doors and with "creative" interpretations of said decisions.

I've been to trials and also worked as a runner for a law firm. And I've never worn anything but business casual in a court. The judges I've seen only get upset with the audience talking, handing things to attorneys during session, or other disruptions.

Keep in mind that in court rooms, people are sometimes literally facing life or death. Or they're facing bankruptcy or instant wealth. It's a tense situation and the judge is the main one responsible to keep order.

I definitely think that those are good things: keeping order in a physical space when tensions are high and people's lives and livelihoods are at stake is no small task. But, I do believe that respect for tradition for the sake preserving this specter of a sort of "national respect" for the judiciary is misguided, possibly bordering on fetishization. I'd rather see that energy and same devotion used to make courts a truly public element of government that an average person can understand. Tangibly, I'd like to see people not dread going to jury duty and/or have a good understanding of what to expect before they go. I think that discarding some of the "courtroom mystique" would go a long way towards that.
People don't dread going to jury duty because of any sort of dress code. I wore jeans and a t-shirt to jury duty last time I was called.

They dread going to jury duty because they'd rather spend their time doing something that contributes to their own personal well being (doing a job, raising a family, having fun).

I like jury duty. It's like being an elected representative, but without a tiring campaign and several years of work. It's just a one day slice :)
Aside from Andrew Jackson and the trail of tears, do you know of any other examples of the federal executive branch not following judicial order?
A few: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lyle-denniston/gingrich-suprem.... A few more times, e.g. with Japanese internment, the court has capitulated and decided in a way that aligned with what was going to happen anyway. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_switch_in_time_that_saved_n....
I can't shake the thought that all of these came about because of the executive's direct lack of respect for the judiciary, not because of any perception by any executive office that the general population lacks respect for the court. The latter seems to be the takeaway point with these pieces of evidence for past transgressions. I really doubt that more instances of FDR-like behavior will or won't come about because of slight shifts in courtroom decorum.

To make a value judgement here: I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing if courts became more accessible to the general population. Whether it be through relaxed attire, language, or physical layouts -- discarding some of the cultural detritus of rituals of years past wouldn't bring the court system to it's knees because of a lack of respect. Rather, it would show the general population that judicial on-goings aren't some esoteric world that they need to think sacred. (Because really, why should they? The courts are for and by the people.) Accessibility would in turn bring understanding, and understanding would turn the current atmosphere of detachment (re: general public from the courts) into a more meaningful respect.

You start off saying that the general population's respect for the court doesn't matter, but then you end up arguing that changing the rules of courtroom decorum will actually increase the respect for the court from the populace and that would be a good thing.

So does it matter or not?

My opinion is that the general population's respect for the court (in the form of whether or not t-shirts are appropriate courtroom attire) has no bearing on whether or not the executive adheres to judicial decisions. On the contrary, I think the attitude that everyone needs to wear suits in court because "respect the court, or the executive won't" is detrimental to those already marginalized: the poor and less educated. They are probably less likely to recognize the social signalling that the formal attire represents.

My secondary point, apologies for the lack of clarity, is that relaxing courtroom procedures and the mystique surrounding them would allow for greater transparency. Greater transparency and a more approachable set of procedures would allow for greater understanding throughout the general population. A greater understanding of our legal system (my second definition of respect), minus the fluff surrounding it (language, attire, etc.), would be a good thing in my book.

I understand that there is inherent complexity in matters of finesse, whether it be law, engineering, or programming, but I don't think we need to actively propagate stifling behaviors like suggesting that suits (and the equivalent for women) must be worn at all times, forever, in the courtroom.

I don't really buy the point about social signaling. You don't wear a suit to court for the same reason you wear one to a board meeting--you do it for the same reason you wear one to a funeral.
If you want more people to understand legal procedure, you should suggest they read The Illustrated Guide to the Law, a webcomic by a defense attorney.

- Exclusionary Rule: http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1585

There are actually a lot of examples. Presidential privilege is a common example where there is some but not total compliance.
The Civil War.