[glup]

One of the lasting myths emerging from American rhetoric is that Cuba is starting from a low base. In fact the per capita GDP (as well as quality of life) is approximately on par with Panama and far exceeds the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, and Nicaragua. Tourism will remain the major source of foreign currency, but I think this change will lead to further development in pharmaceuticals and telecom.

[willholloway]

Cubans enjoy greater economic and medical security under socialism than their counterparts in capitalist neighboring countries, even without subsidies from Russia and even with a strict embargo with the US.

The country is surprisingly politically free for a tiny nation facing an existential threat from a hostile super power that has invaded, attempted to assassinate it's leader, and funded militants dead set on violent revolution for decades.

American leadership immediately resorted to torture and illegal domestic surveillance when faced with the loss of two skyscrapers and 3,000 lives from an enemy that is more like an annoying gnat than an existential threat.

Cuba is a success story for socialism, and that is why US policy has sought to punish it, and to make it fail. The US did not want a successful socialist nation in it's sphere of influence, it gives the other nations subject to the Monroe doctrine ideas.

[chrisdevereux]

> The country is surprisingly politically free for a tiny nation facing an existential threat from a hostile super power that has invaded, attempted to assassinate it's leader, and funded militants dead set on violent revolution for decades.

Despite the fact that I spend much of my working life writing "if" statements, I am going to ignore everything after the sixth word of this sentence and express disbelief at how you can claim that Cubans are politically free.

[willholloway]

What everyone thought I meant:

if cubaFree

> True

What I meant:

Considering how much political freedom was jettisoned by the US after 9/11, I am amazed that Cuba sits as close to the free side of the freedom spectrum as it does considering its been under existential threat for five decades.

Cuba is not a completely free and open society, and I don't claim to be able to pinpoint with certainty where on the freedom spectrum it sits exactly. I have never been there, as a US citizen I have not been free to travel there.

We are not free to go see for ourselves, we just echo the dominant ideology.

From the reading I have done I know that Cuba is more free than I was led to believe in school. It is not an Orwellian state.

I cite a comment from this thread on the topic:

> When I was there I was struck by people saying how hard it was and how they had to get by on about US$2 a week - this was a while back now.

Cubans are free to complain, I've heard it's a national past time.

They are free to engage in politics within socialism.

They are not free to oppose socialism and work to end it.

Americans have never been free to undermine capitalism. Anarchist/Marxist revolutionaries in the US have always been monitored, harassed, imprisoned and sometimes killed. See the history of the FBI, the Palmer raids, the Wobblies, Joe McCarthy, the black panthers, SDS, etc...

The US has given the Cuban government justification to curtail rights. This justification would not exist if the US would have respected Cuban sovereignty and not tried to murder it's leader, invade and destabilize.

How do you tell the difference between a sincere citizen activist and a foreign spy when the most powerful empire the world has known is actively trying to sabotage your government?

In the US in the years after 9/11 we heard a dire meme repeated over and over that went something like "If we get hit again it will be martial law" and we mostly accepted that as inevitable.

I find the finger pointing at Cuba to be unfair and lacking historical context.

[refurb]

Cuba is a success story for socialism, and that is why US policy has sought to punish it, and to make it fail.

I don't think your argument is supported by any of the facts.[1]

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba#Contempora...

[tim333]

Indeed, I don't think the communist government would remain in power long if they ever had a free election. When I was there I was struck by people saying how hard it was and how they had to get by on about US$2 a week - this was a while back now.

[jbooth]

He was making an economic argument, not a political rights argument.

How come nobody hit the ceiling when we didn't close our embassy with China today?

[adventured]

His economic argument is just as wrong as a political argument would have been: Cuba is a complete failure economically and has been for the last 50 years.

Cuba is third world poor. A country where the average person earns $300 to $500 per month, is a slave pen. State sponsored slavery is the only way you can repress people to such an extreme extent as to hold their standard of living that low for 50 years.

Given there has never been an economically successful Socialist nation in world history, it makes perfect sense that Cuba would be a failure just like all the rest.

[willholloway]

In 2007, the life expectancies at birth were as follows (World Bank data): Cuba, 78.26 years; Latin America and Caribbean, 73.13 years; United States, 77.99 years.[24]

The mortality rates for children under five in 2007 were as follows (World Bank): Cuba, 6.5; Latin America and Caribbean, 26.37; United States, 7.60;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Cuba#Comparison_...

You are right, Cuba is third world poor and they still beat their capitalist neighbors and even the wealthy and powerful US in life expectancy and infant mortality.

Cuba does so much with so little because of the radical idea that we are all in this together. Cuba spends $300 per citizen on health care, the US spends $7000. I spent $5000 personally just this year on health care and I'm young and healthy.

Those in capitalist countries are getting fleeced, and Cuba shows us that. If Cuban socialism didn't exist I couldn't point out these facts, and that is why Cuban socialism was such a threat and why the US has acted so insecure towards the tiny island's revolution.

I don't want the US to adopt the Cuban system, I just believe we had no right to violate their sovereignty, and having different political systems out there lets us have a sort of A/B test for politics. I don't believe a global political and economic monoculture is healthy.

As an American I wouldn't want to trade places at birth with a Cuban, but if I had the choice between being born to asset-less parents in Jamaica or asset-less parents in Cuba, I know I would be healthier, more materially secure and far safer from violent crime in Cuba. I also would have a much greater chance of not dying during my birth.

[jbooth]

Compared to their neighbors? After adjusting for a worldwide-unique embargo?

Honestly, I'm not into communism and am very surprised that their figures are as good as they are. It's dumbfounding.'

I guess it's more a statement of how hard it is to come up from the bottom whatever your system is. Russia and China both showed great results in their first couple 5-year plans before communism petered out and didn't deliver further gains.

[philwelch]

If Cuba is such a success story, why do they have to force their people to stay and why do people risk their lives to escape and defect to the United States anyway?

[adventured]

This has to be a troll post. Cuba has operated under a violent, murderous, strict dictatorship for five decades. The exact opposite of politically free. Fidel was never afraid to murder his competition, or anyone that dared to oppose him in fact. If your country hasn't seen a leadership change since the 1950s, and you have zero freedom of speech or press, what you have is not freedom.

[happyscrappy]

>Cuba is a success story for socialism

With that type of success who needs failure.