[trhway]

>If you mean "disruption" - lowering the prices of a cab by bypassing regulation - not really.

they bypassed the regulation artificially limiting supply - medallions. Such limit of supply has nothing to do with public interests/safety/etc... and in many cases actually goes against the public interest.

[tomp]

Uber doesn't replace taxis as a service - if my phone is dead, I can only use a taxi, not Uber. To keep the price sustainable, cities limit the supply of taxis. In exchange taxis need to obey some rules (e.g. can't reject people).

It possible that the regulations are too strict, and I don't support medallions, but I don't support Uber breaking a number of other regulations - e.g. surge pricing, insurance, drivers that actually know the city (in e.g. London).

[jmccree]

What I don't understand is that in my locale (Atlanta, GA) the licensed regulated taxis are absolutely awful and attempt to rip you off in every way possible. They take for ever to show if you call, if they even do. They never will take a credit card without a huge fight, and often if you hail one late at night they will demand $xx in cash up front or just drive off. The drivers are rude, cars horribly maintained, you have to watch the route they are taking like a hawk or they will take the long way or even literally drive in circles to run the meter up. (Had that happen, pointed it out, got in to an argument over fare until I threatened to call police.) The entire experience is awful.

My worst Uber experience is better than my best cab experience. I don't know anyone who's tried Uber here who would go back to using cabs except as a last resort. I don't understand why people would prefer a random almost untraceable taxi (Unless you memorize or document the license # of every driver, assuming it's even legit) over a known GPS tracked Uber. Perhaps things are different in other cities.

[philh]

> drivers that actually know the city (in e.g. London)

Does any other city have such a strict knowledge test as London? Certainly it's not common.

With that in mind, if you support the Knowledge requirement in London: do you think that other cities should have their own Knowledge? Or that London is a special case? Or do you think the Knowledge itself is too strict, but something like it is good? Or...?

[tomp]

Yes, I think that every city should have it. For some cities, e.g. New York, it would obviously be easier to pass. I think that if a cab picks me up on the street, the driver should know where I'm going, and the best way to get there - without typing it into the mobile phone, and constantly pressing the buttons while s/he's driving. Eventually it's going to be replaced with apps, but there are quite a few more pieces missing (e.g. real-time traffic information, frequent updates of road works, and (probably most important of all) perfect voice input/search/commands).

[Pyxl101]

> To keep the price sustainable, cities limit the supply of taxis.

Would you mind elaborating on the idea of sustainable pricing?

I ask because it sounds not too far away from, for example, "With the goal of artificially inflating the price of transportation, for the benefit cartel members, we will constrain the supply". See OPEC. This type of collusion is typically considered to be anti-competitive, and not in the best interest of society overall, or of the market counterparties. Silicon Valley's "No Hire List" conspiracy is another example of cartel action to manipulate market price for the cartel's benefit - in that case, illegal.

Why should the government support a specific type of private business (taxi companies) in this way? Competition is a good thing - we ought to encourage taxis and other transportation companies to compete with each other and offer the lowest price. I don't in general want my government to prop up businesses that cannot survive on their own (moral hazard, among other reasons), especially if society can solve the same problems with businesses that thrive naturally. To make this claim, there needs to be an objective way to define what a "sustainable price" is. Can such a thing be defined? (except as follows)

The fair market price is the sustainable price. Anything else is unsustainable and will only persist as long as artificial constraints are applied, such as arbitrary limitations on supply. This is not healthy, and harms the market and the consumer (deadweight loss). A functioning market balances supply and demand naturally through the negotiation of price.

Do other forms of transportation such as long-haul trucking or air travel require limitations on the number of trucks or planes in order for their markets to function effectively? It seems as though they don't. We expect airlines and trucking companies to compete with each other in order to offer the lowest price, and these days consumers select airlines largely on price. Why is regulation to artificially constrain supply necessary for taxis but not trucks or airlines?

It seems to me that such regulation is in fact not necessary, and not in the best interest of society; but is rather regulation that has resulted from "regulatory capture", and protects certain vested interests, at the expense of other transportation companies like Uber and Lyft, as well as the general consumer.

Surge pricing is a good thing, and if regulations prohibit it, then that's another example of undesirable regulatory intervention in a market. Surge pricing is another concept that's effectively standard and well-accepted in air travel: if you travel when it's busy, the fare will cost more. I discussed surge pricing in a previous comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8720969 The consumer protection issue of fixing taxi fares so that people don't get taken advantage of by unethical cabbies does not apply to Uber.

I am not sure about the insurance issue, but I agree that Uber ought to be required to provide whatever insurance is conventionally required by vehicles in that category. Perhaps that's taxis when comparing to UberX, and private towncars when comparing to Uber.

[tomp]

I see public transport as a public service, like an utility, and I think it should be regulated.

The problem with markets is that they optimize only on profit/price. However, there are things that I (and I believe the population at large) value that cannot be optimized using simple market dynamics with no regulation. For example, I expect there to be taxis on the road, even if the demand is very low. Another is, as I mentioned previously and you agree, insurance. Yet another is cooperation - it is beneficial for a city to mandate that there is only one app/protocol for hailing taxis, whereas for private companies it makes sense to each create its own walled garden and prevent new competition from entering.

Of course, all of the above could be created by carefully-constructed regulation (or appropriate economic incentives), but simply limiting the supply of taxis along with a small number of rules is the easiest way to do it. Ideally, we'll get better regulation; while Uber will probably make us reach that goal faster, I hope the end result is not like Uber.

I'm divided on surge pricing, but I definitely see no reason for surge pricing on "predictable" events, such as Friday night. Even for "unpredictable" events, such as rain or even a hockey game, I think it would be better if people would be able to hail taxis on the street, or on a first-come-first-serve basis. On the other hand, I realize that surge pricing can increase supply, but the very existence of surge pricing can also lead to market manipulation - suppliers waiting until surge pricing is in effect, so that they get a higher fare. In effect, (if I understand correctly) since surge pricing is not momentary (when it starts, it doesn't end until sometime later), Uber is creating a free market distortion itself.

[jkaunisv1]

Cabs are not public transport. They're private. I'm paying the cab driver directly to take me from point A to point B. It's not a city bus or a subway.

Your argument about a unified protocol is weird. It's not like there's a central place I can call to get a cab. There are many cab companies with different numbers. There is very little difference to me between having to look up a cab number and using an app to call a cab. And how is it even beneficial to have one app/protocol for hailing a cab? Beneficial to who? I would rather choose the service I prefer over time based on my experience with them and my preferences. The city doesn't need to dictate that for me.

For the record, I strongly dislike Uber's business practices. I think there should be regulation for stuff like background checks of drivers, insurance, etc. Just as the food industry has regulations for health and safety.

But the taxi business overall has no reason to be regulated in terms of limiting cabs on the road or how they're accessed, just as there is no regulation on how many restaurants there can be in town, when they're open or whether you can make a reservation or not.

[lkbm]

> I'm divided on surge pricing, but I definitely see no reason for surge pricing on "predictable" events, such as Friday night. Even for "unpredictable" events, such as rain or even a hockey game, I think it would be better if people would be able to hail taxis on the street, or on a first-come-first-serve basis. On the other hand, I realize that surge pricing can increase supply, but the very existence of surge pricing can also lead to market manipulation - suppliers waiting until surge pricing is in effect, so that they get a higher fare. In effect, (if I understand correctly) since surge pricing is not momentary (when it starts, it doesn't end until sometime later), Uber is creating a free market distortion itself.

My biggest concern with surge pricing is the apparent lack of transparency. According to my friends who use Uber, the app will give the estimated cost that doesn't account for (at least not fully) the surge pricing--to the extent of an estimate $15 fare actually being over $90.

If people know before they make the request/get in the car, there are still issues of what they thought was a viable option for getting home suddenly turns out not to be, but without surge pricing to boost supply, it may well not be anyway in such situations, so, like you, I'm divided.

[baddox]

> However, there are things that I (and I believe the population at large) value that cannot be optimized using simple market dynamics with no regulation. For example, I expect there to be taxis on the road, even if the demand is very low.

Can you explain why these things that the population values at large would not be profitable? Obviously that can be true for public goods, but individual or small group point-to-point ground transportation (taxis) is not a public good. The fact that you expect things that are extremely inefficient is not a very good reason.

[tomp]

Just because it's fulfilled by private companies does not mean it isn't a public good. I believe that transport, especially inter-city transport (which has many more externalities than intra-city transport - e.g. traffic, pollution, mobility) should be managed as a public service. Many cities agree.

Simply said, the fact that I can always get a taxi makes it more viable for me to not own a car. Less cars in a city mean more space and less traffic, both of which are desirable for the entire population of the city, and both of which have significantly more positive payoff than the cost of some minimum amount of taxis on the street at all times. Therefore, in my eyes, it makes sense to enforce such minimum via regulation, even though it is not profitable (and will manifest itself in an increased fare for other, more profitable rides).

[emodendroket]

Well, one, because not controlling it could presumably lead to big boom-and-bust cycles as prices rise and fall, and for another, every taxi on the road has costs to every driver, as they cause congestion driving around looking for fares and burn up fuel, polluting the air, etc. Of course the same argument's applicable to private cars, but how many of us spend all day driving around in circles?

[trhway]

>Uber doesn't replace taxis as a service - if my phone is dead, I can only use a taxi, not Uber.

well, good luck, as i obviously didn't have enough luck to successfully use taxi when i tried even with a working phone :)

>To keep the price sustainable, cities limit the supply of taxis. In exchange taxis need to obey some rules (e.g. can't reject people).

And Santa Claus is real.

>It possible that the regulations are too strict,

who cares what regulations are if taxi service is that bad and thus the regulations are worthless? What happened with Uber (AirBNB/etc...) is the classical case from Hegelian dialectic - when situation gets that bad, that "badness" is a fertile soil from which a principally new solution emerges which fundamentally changes the situation - in western world such process is called "disruption". Attempts to reverse the situation after that is, like our Borg friends like to say, futile.