[wazoox]

Exactly that. You know what's insanely great? When you watch this presentation video of 1978 at AT&T where Ken Thomson explains Unix and type some commands on his VT-52 and you think: all of this is still current knowledge, and all of his explanations still hold true. Just like celestial mechanics or Pythagorean theorems. We are heirs of this ancient wisdom and this is friggin good, this is culture.

[XorNot]

And systemd is changing precisely none of that.

Nothing about systemd removes the basic unix command line. Because he's most definitely not explaining the init system, which wouldn't have been the same from year to year then, or even similar decade to decade.

[dredmorbius]

Systemd does touch numerous parts of Unix as it existed in 1978: logging, authentication, and devices come to mind. But much of what it's interacting with came along afterward: networking, far more services than existed at the time, a much more complex security scope, and more.

But that's still a good 25-30 years of work, experience, practices, and smoothing out the rough edges that will be shot down the drains.

Systemd also fundamentally changes the control locus of key features within Linux and how applications, the kernel, and OS as a whole are constructed and constrained. Putting all of that under the control of a small group with highly evident disdain for any "outside" concerns (in quotes as these are of the larger Linux community, and the concerns are most decidedly inside that group), contempt, and plays-poorly-with-others attitudes.

I'm not impressed.

Nor with your comment, FWIW.

[XorNot]

Authentication is done with PAM and Kerberos these days - Kerberos is late 1980s, PAM came along in the 90s. Unix evolves and had continued to do so since its inception. udev certainly changed how we do devices.

The rest of your comment is fear mongering which could be applied to any group of core devs on any OSS project in existence. After all who controls Debian and security defaults? Do YOU trust them?

[dredmorbius]

You're missing the point: there was no networking (outside of UUCP and dial-up connnections) in 1978 Unix, so there were large classes of functionality since added which simply didn't exist.

What 1978 Unix did have was security and authentication. The OS was multi-user from the very beginning -- hence the pun in the name: uniplexing operating system (Dennis and Ken created a two-user OS to play Space Traveller).

As Bruce Perens recently discussed in a set of comments at LWN, the first thing he did as DPL of Debian was decentralize the management of Debian packaging. He recommends a very similar process for Systemd. The Systemd proponents in that discussion aren't particularly taken with the idea.

http://lwn.net/Articles/621022/

It's not a matter of fear mongering when the stated goals and practices of Systemd are to intentionally break compatibility with other Unixen, to reject compatibility patches, and to provide "choice" in the form of allowing users the option of any Linux distro on which they can run systemd:

http://imgur.com/r/linux/Is9vjRJ

As Jon Corbet noted at LWN in his Grumpy Editor post on the topic, it would greatly behoove systemd leadership and proponents to demonstrate a modicum of gracious victory.

As for Debian's governance, that process has been more than slightly troubled of late, with at least four key departures (Joey Hess, Ian Jackson, Russ Allbery, and Tollef Fog Heen), only in the past couple of weeks. The cabal question was raised by former DPL Bruce Perens in the LWN post linked above. And, frankly, no, I haven't been happy with the recent directions of Debian's Technical Committee of late. Joey Hess's resignation (as well as those of Ian and Russ) calls into question more than just the specific decisions, but the process as a whole.

Your attempts to smear my own comments which are based on actual events, facts, and highly considered views of those with deep and broad experience in the field is, I'm really sorry to say, far too typical of what I see from systemd proponents (the attacks on Perens in the LWN thread strike a pretty similar tenor).

Something is sick in this process. That more than anything is what's bothering me about it, though I've also grave doubts over the technical direction.

[mercurial]

It's an interesting take, but that's not really how software works. Look at Plan9. It isn't POSIX compliant, but it does a lot of things much better than traditional Unix (or nowadays Linux, for that matter). Traditional Unix is not the philosopher's stone. There are plenty of good things about it, but it also comes with a number of dubious design decisions or what is now irrelevant cruft (why are we leaving with code replicating the behaviour of obsolete hardware in our terminal emulators?). It's not so much the actual implementation that is important, it is the "good parts" of its philosophy that we need to keep.

[dredmorbius]

Plan9 is actually a really good example to bring up, for any number of reasons. I have to admit that I've never used it, though I've read bits about it. There are definitely some ideas in there that I'd like to play with and experience.

The most important elements to consider about Plan9 are these:

1. Plan9 wasn't Unix (nor was it Linux). It was its own OS, it was absolutely informed by Unix, and tried to learn from mistakes practiced in Unix. Because it wasn't Unix it provided for an independent test bed in which these ideas could be explored without disrupting a large established installed base and user community. And that is a key benefit of branched development. All of these I consider positives of Plan9.

2. It was hampered by an overbearing corporate control and licensing model. It was an ugly stepchild of AT&T's, under a proprietary license. The fact that it was under development kept it from being widely deployed (among other factors), the fact that it had a restricted license meant that other possible collaborators couldn't get involved.

When Linux emerged in the early 1990s, it had a lot of problems -- it was far from the best or most obvious Unix alternative out there (look up ESR's PC Unix guides from that era). But in a world of large proprietary Unicies priced far out of the hobbyist's range, a handful of small PC ports of varying quality, and BSD which was embroiled in its lawsuit with AT&T (speaking of Plan9), Linux was unencumbered, free, and (pretty quickly) available under the GPL. That gave it the critical mass to develop. As with Plan9, it was its own OS, providing a testbed environment for development, but also allowing stable cuts to be made for use in specific deployments as it reached sufficient states of readiness.

Which is to say: the community and development dynamics mattered a lot.

I'm seeing a far more troubled path for Systemd in this regard.

Also of note: in the Debian init system debate, a specific concern raised against upstart, one of the init alternatives, was its own requirement of a developer license grant to Canonical, which was seen as a strong demerit against upstart. As with Plan9, exercising too much proprietary control may well have cost Canonical critical votes in the Debian decision.

[mercurial]

It seems that folks outside of Red Hat do contribute to systemd, if that's your concern. What I could imagine is that some projects under the systemd umbrella will live an independent life, once things stabilize a bit.

I must admit the ever-growing scope of systemd is starting to concern me somewhat (though I've been running it with satisfaction more or less since it became available in Debian experimental).

[pjmlp]

What can I say, some people in 2014 like to live in 1978.

It was fun for a while, but I grew out of it.

[wazoox]

You completely missed the point. It's not about living as in 1978, it's about _not throwing away_ accumulated knowledge. What use is my CP/M knowledge nowadays? None at all. What use is the knowledge I could have of '78 Bourne shell, pipes, signals, vi, ed, awk, grep, man? Not only useful, but still of daily use.

[pjmlp]

Cars from last century still take me from A to B. It doesn't mean I want to drive one.

[wazoox]

New cars have almost exactly the same interface as cars from the 50s or even older ones. People having learned to drive at any time since WWII can drive any brand new car, and nobody proposed seriously that we switch to a joystick or a brain interface.

Similarly, though the underlying hardware and code share basically nothing with Unixen of yore, old knowledge is still useful on modern Linux. This commonality of interface is more important than inner workings.

By the way the most expensive cars by far (therefore arguably the most desirable) are old to very old. A Ferrari 250 GTO is way more valuable than any new car. IIRC the most expensive car ever is a 1929 Bugatti Royale, and even you can drive it.