[aw3c2]

Are you calling me a misogynist? How on earth did you get to that incredible insult from my initial post?

This kind of abrasive behaviour is exactly why discussing these issues seems impossible. This is why people like me get sick and tired of it. Please educate! Please give me objective education, I crave it!

[paddyoloughlin]

Your post seeks to minimise the issue (it's not about tech in general/just a few bad apples) something which is directly addressed in Part II of the original post: http://randi.io/wp/archives/91

I think the reasoning basically goes that trying to minimise the problem of misogyny is a symptom of misogyny.

[aw3c2]

I am sorry but I do not see that directly addressed at all. I have now read it 3 times. There are selected examples, personal experiences, the Gamergate shitstorm which is beyond the point of sanity by a long shot and a lot of rambling. And that lead to my conclusion of being not something one has to read if one is interested in making the situation for women in tech better.

[paddyoloughlin]

This is the part I meant:

> What’s even more troubling than the abuse, however, is that so many people are oblivious to these issues. Even after Kathy was brave enough to post her personal story, people think she’s a statistical abnormality. Since I’ve started talking more openly about my experiences, a staggering number of men that I know and respect have spoken to me privately, apologizing because they didn’t know this was happening. I’ve related those conversations to other women, and they were shocked. They didn’t understand how men could not see these problems, but it’s because so many of us are being so goddamn quiet.

But on re-read, I accept that it was too strong of me to say 'directly'.

Anyway, the "it's only a few bad apples" response is common enough to have been addressed many times by essays on sexism in tech. It's akin to the "not all men" narrative.

[aw3c2]

Thanks! Still reads as mostly anecdotes to me. I know enough women who are not subject to such abuse to know that it is a tiny minority that is. Or maybe they are not parts of communities where this is more normal? (Obligatory disclaimer: Not victim blaming for being in certain communities.)

I wish oblivious (apparently) responses like mine would actually get valid feedback/criticism instead of being swept under the rug on an instant. I have learned nothing today except to never ever participate in a discussion of these issues. Instead I felt a lot of anger and hatred against the

I really wish people would concentrate on finding out what motivates people to harass and abuse instead of directing their anger at those who question their methodics and tactics.

[freebsdgirl]

>I know enough women who are not subject to such abuse to know that it is a tiny minority that is.

Are these women really not subject to abuse? Is it possible that they just haven't felt like they could talk about it? Could it be that they don't realize that some of the things they've experienced constitute as abnormal behavior? It took me a long time to figure that one out. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that others would have the same problem.

[aw3c2]

It could very well be but I am very close to some of them and am confident that they are neither oblivious nor feeling like they have to hide anything. They are well respected in their respective communities.

[JoshTriplett]

> Still reads as mostly anecdotes to me. I know enough women who are not subject to such abuse to know that it is a tiny minority that is.

That mindset, right there, is part of the problem, and is a large part of why you're getting downvoted.

> I wish oblivious (apparently) responses like mine would actually get valid feedback/criticism

Here you go:

1) You do not know anywhere close to a statistical sample.

2) You are unlikely to directly observe most abuse.

3) If and when you observe such abuse, you are unlikely to recognize all of it as such. (The most blatant of it, sure, that's obvious. The worst of it, though, is often more subtle and pervasive.)

4) People you know are not necessarily inclined to share their experiences with you. That holds doubly true if you are (or are perceived as being) in a position of authority.

See http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/I_asked_a_woman_and_she_s... for a variation on the theme; also see http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Lived_experience . If you're interested in more such issues, I'd recommend reading around on that wiki, particularly about silencing/derailing/etc tactics.

> I really wish people would concentrate on finding out what motivates people to harass and abuse

I understand this mindset; it'd be nice to root-cause and fix problems rater than having to work around them. However, sadly, often the motivation is "she's successful" or "people are listening to her". (And if you're looking for the underlying motivation below that, that makes people so broken that they'd harass others: who knows, but that seems unlikely to lead anywhere near a solution. There's no excuse for such harassment.)

> I have learned nothing today except to never ever participate in a discussion of these issues.

That was my initial reaction when I first started hearing about these issues. In any area where you don't have experience, it helps to listen first, and learn more, before jumping in. I spent a long time lurking on LKML before I started hacking on Linux. I spent a long time reading about FOSS licenses before I started dealing with licensing issues.

The reaction you're getting is a lot like the reaction you'd get if, in response to an intricate kernel patch, you asked questions (and made some incorrect assumptions) about basic C programming concepts. In general, the comments or discussion surrounding someone's experiences with harassment are not a good place to ask intro-level questions. There are a few places for such questions, as well as many resources where you can read about these issues. The Geek Feminism wiki is a great place to start.

[aw3c2]

My mindset is that of a scientist I guess. I don't trust people's own accounts, especially in such a heated debate. I want numbers, research and objectivity.

> However, sadly, often the motivation is "she's successful" or "people are listening to her".

Sources please!

The wikis you linked seems highly loaded and written with agenda. The writing is purely self-serving(?), without criticism of itself. I am sure whoever wrote that feels it is the right way, but I don't see much value in that myself.

The FLOSSPOLS survey linked seems very interesting and objective though, thank you!

[zachwooddoughty]

While these are selected examples and personal experiences, they are indicative of a greater cultural norm that normalizes the harassment of women. By seeing what one woman has gone through, we can be more cognizant of what other women are going through, which is important for making the situation for women in tech better.

The author's determination to speak out has led to thousands of people harassing her -- it follows that many women will not speak out about the abuse they receive online. We need to be aware that this abuse can and does happen in order to improve the situation for women in tech.