[panic]

The incentives for police in this country are all wrong. It should be illegal for police to profit in any way off of the people they're tasked with protecting. They should be paid using tax money based on how well they're doing their actual job.

[pdkl95]

A big part of the problem is that they have rationally come to the conclusion that there will be no consequences for their actions. If they had any kind of fear that they could realistically get in trouble, almost all of the problem would go away.

The problem is operant conditioning[1]. We have created a situation where an action that probably should have gotten most people fired (or worse) is generally ignored (or earns you a paid vacation), and that there is some sort of personal benefit (e.g. margarita machines[2]). We have effectively created a Skinner Box that teaches people that they are above the law. I would expect that most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation.

None of this behavior will change until we reintroduce some level of fear-of-consequences. Start actually prosecuting misconduct - even the little things - and a lot[3] of the bad behavior will self-correct.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

[2] http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/john-oliver-civil-forfeit...

[3] not all, of course, but it would certainly be a good start

[jMyles]

> most people would eventually be conditioned into socially harmful behaviors if they were placed in a similar situation.

I think all people is a fair assessment.

Also, there seems to be an incredible amount of mental illness among law enforcement, prison staff, and prosecutorial staff. I listened to all eight audio clips this morning[1], and the gentlemen speaking both seemed to be incredible paranoid, with an "us vs them" mentality about property seizures. They were giggling throughout as if they were happy, but they seemed very paranoid; even delusional.

I also watched the clip that made the rounds on reddit today of the police officer pulling over the ambulance. He's obviously, clearly not well. Something is very wrong in this man's life and he needs help.

Finally, the guards at Dade Correctional obviously have incredible demons - truly psychotic behavior[3]. From the article:

---

Joiner thought he pretty much had seen it all, from guards nearly starving prisoners to death, to taunting and beating them unconscious while handcuffed for sport. He recalls one inmate was paid a pack of cigarettes to attack one sick inmate whose only offense was to ask if their mail could be delivered before bedtime.

But Joiner, a 46-year-old convicted killer, saw something that morning that shook even him to his core.

On the floor of a small shower stall he was ordered to clean, he saw a single blue canvas shoe and what he later realized was large chunks of human skin.

The skin belonged to Darren Rainey, a 50-year-old mentally-ill prisoner whom the guards had handcuffed and locked in the cell the night before. Witnesses and DOC reports indicate Rainey was left in the scalding hot water for hours, allegedly as punishment for defecating in his cell.

Joiner, in an interview with the Miami Herald on Tuesday at Columbia Correctional Institution in Lake City, said he could hear Rainey screaming as hot steam filled the unit that night. He also heard the guards taunting Rainey, saying “How do you like your shower?’’

---

It's incredible that we as a society don't manage to provide for the mental health even of our own state officials. These people seem like some of the most poorly adjusted people I've ever heard about.

[1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicks29/aif-in-doubtatake-ita-behind...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SMpAHJkhm0&feature=youtu.be

[3] http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/a...

[infinite8s]

Police aren't actually required to protect anyone (see Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)), but just to generally maintain social order.

[jychang]

I've never heard of this case, can you explain what it implies?

[justnow]

"In every state of the United States, and in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Canada, when you call the police, dial 911, and rely on the police to protect you, you are taking a big risk. Under the laws of most of these jurisdictions, the police do not have to respond. They do not have to protect you"

Also: "Carrying out the duties of a police or fire department are frequently classified as 'governmental' or 'discretionary'. Under the statutes and case decisions in most states, citizens cannot sue the government for negligently performing (or failing to perform) a 'governmental' or 'discretionary' function."

Plus: "The general rule is that governmental entities owe a duty to provide police protection to the public, but not to protect any particular individual"

source: Dial 911 and Die, by Richard W. Stevens

P.S. I apologize I provide a single source, but I personally haven't read too much on this topic, other than the book cited.

[ekianjo]

what happened to the "to protect and to serve" motto then?

[fleitz]

It's still there, just like North Korea is still, The Democratic People's Republic of North Korea.

[jrs235]

Think of it this way: To protect and serve the government and government officials. (The government is suppose to serve the people/public...)

[jMyles]

It's just a motto, not a legal doctrine.

Presumably it does have some effect. "Don't be evil" seemed to work for a while.

[ekianjo]

Yeah I know what you mean, but mottos are usually helpful to set the tone.

[daurnimator]

> They should be paid using tax money based on how well they're doing their actual job

So.... if the police do a bad job; and crime is rife; we get rid of the police department? Or conversely, if there is no crime, we give more and more money to the police?

[brownbat]

Looks like you were buried. I'm not sure why.

I read your basic point as, "Sure, we all like to use incentives to encourage good behavior, but there are some special cases where incentives completely backfire. In general, feedback systems arise in public services, especially where funding is correlated with or necessary for performance.

e.g., If a middle of the road school starts to falter, you don't strip away all its funding and expect it to start churning out well rounded prodigies. No, you have to roll up your sleeves and do the hard work of figuring out, "ok, what broke down? Is this a morale issue, something with leadership/management, is the cohort of students a bad outlier, did materials quality decline?" Recovery might take more funds, not less.

Other public services would see similar results. A struggling fire department shouldn't lose its trucks. A police department that can't effectively deter or arrest criminals needs a little more work than just being driven into bankruptcy.

To panic's point, maybe there are other ways to incentivize good behavior. The fruit of the poisonous tree and miranda both operate on the premise that when the cops misbehave, criminals go free.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning

For civil asset forfeiture it's trickier, because there's not any criminal when police are doing their job poorly. You almost have to fine them, unless maybe you're willing to release some random offender from prison every time the police cross the line? :)

I'm with you, insofar as your point was just, "There aren't simple solutions here, it's a difficult issue."

[finkel]

Those are both extremely fallacious measures of whether the police are doing a good job.

[Gustomaximus]

Fallacious = based on a mistaken belief.

synonyms: erroneous, false, untrue, wrong, incorrect, faulty, flawed, inaccurate, inexact, imprecise, mistaken, misinformed, misguided, misleading, deceptive, delusive, delusory, illusory, sophistic, specious, fictitious, spurious, fabricated, distorted, made up, trumped up

[jMyles]

Surely there are more granular metrics than that.

[scintill76]

> based on how well they're doing their actual job

Might that also lead to questionable practices to make sure they're perceived to be "doing a good job"? It already happens in the form of ticket quotas.