[cconcepts]

Wow, thats a large reply. Sorry for the delay.

I'm not going to give your well thought out points the response they deserve but let me respond with a few things.

Of course our interpretation of the bible evolves to some degree because our interpretation of anything reflects our culture. Jesus existed within a culture and so do the people that attempt to follow him. Wouldn't you be concerned if people's biblical understanding didn't evolve in some respect and we all wore togas and sandals to be biblical?

Paragraph two: no one can prove or disprove God therefore default to Occam's razor for the final decision. Occam's razor is useful for statistical thinking but imagine if we applied this "default to occam's razor attitude" with everything? Would Einstein have pursued and refined his general theory? Unlikely, he might have said something like "this is all getting a bit unusual and not what I initially expected, I think I'll just default back". As you suggest he has decided to "assume much less" and completely nullified his pursuit of truth for the sake of intellectual comfort - not having to deal with something that, on the surface, appeared bizarre and unappealing on our first analysis. It isn't fair to do this to ourselves when history has shown that truth is often stranger than we can imagine.

Fine Tuning: Sure, there are scientific answers to these things; "one in a trillion planets happens to be the right distance from the sun" well and good. But to have all these elements, each with such miniscule odds, is far beyond the probability of the known universe many times over. To the point that, folks like Richard Dawkins propound the multiverse theory in which there are billions of universes like our own and we just happen to be in the right one because there is no logical explanation to how all these elements came together just right in the universe that we know....to me its the multiverse that sounds far fetched but I'm willing to analyse it further.

False dichotomy; having investigated many world religions and seen the theme of "be good enough, meditate enough, pray enough and you might reach paradise/nirvana" repeated over and over again, it seems that God is a terrible guy who sits in comfort delivering proclamations that we can't keep up with. That is, until I look at Christ and see that, far from remaining out of the mess, he has entered it in pursuit of us (like a loving father would) and makes payment for us himself. When my child does wrong I pursue him even when he doesn't want to be pursued because I love him. To sit back and say "be good or daddy won't love you" would be horrific and manipulative and not lead to a meaningful relationship. Because the God of the bible treats humanity like a loving father treats his son is the reason I see it as the only other option. If the vengeful and distant gods of Hinduism etc are true then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to know them.

>"You must get comfortable with not knowing" - sorry but I have to disagree here. I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with not knowing. I desperately want the truth and see it as lifes purpose to pursue it. However, there comes a point where I have to leap off from the knowledge I have and make a few assumptions otherwise I am left with nothing to stand on. This is why science has hypothises - we don't have all the answers but we need to believe in something or we have no objective standpoint with which to consider anything true and, as a few despairing philosophy students will tell you "we could just be brains sitting in vats being sent sensory information through nerve endings, we can't prove anything." This is a weak position in which to pursue truth because "you can't prove anything" and so nothing becomes reliable. As CS Lewis has pointed out; "if you see through everything then you really see nothing at all".

Religion may have been used to make sense of reality but that doesn't mean it is its only purpose. If there is truth in religion then it must be the means of a creator to get in touch with creation (temporarily ignoring the fact that humans have used religion for all other kinds of selfish means that is wasn't intended for). So to say "we needed God once when we didn't understand stuff but now we know things so we don't need God" is the old cause and agency discussion. Just because I know how something was done doesn't mean I know the reason (or lack of reason) that it was done for. Also, as Edison pointed out, despite a bit of progress we still don't know one millionth of a percent about anything. Sure, we've made some great scientific discoveries. But every new discovery opens ten new questions. This is partly what makes science so awesome but we need to keep this humbling fact in mind when we start thinking we have 'arrived' at the fullness of knowledge.

I claim to know God a little because he chose to not leave us in the dark but deliver to us the bible for our own benefit. But the bible is available to a lot of people is therefore a 'distributed' revelation of truth. How can I use the bible to exert power of someone when they have access to it themselves. The people who are vulnerable to this kind of manipulation are those who won't investigate themselves but effectively say "someone tell me what to believe". Thankfully, these people are becoming less and less and people who understand what they believe are on the increase (relative to the whole). You, super_mario, are not susceptible to being one of these "tell me what to believe" people because of your inquisitiveness and obvious desire to seek out truth. I'm sorry that people have used the bible to "lord it over others" but the bible itself specifically says not to do this. People that do this anger me as much as they anger anyone else. The only objective source of truth in Christianity is the bible which is why we posit "sola scriptura" or scripture as the highest authority. Most have access to it so there is less chance of manipulation. Acts 17:11 encourages this attitude, to take whatever someone says and compare it with scripture to see if its true, rather than swallowing it wholesale.

Miracles: if we need proof of miracles to affirm our faith then I would say it is a shallow faith. Our faith should come from looking at the facts not, as you say, pursuing some shaman. Yes, I believe Jesus worked miracles. No, that is not the reason I believe he is the son of God. Some people have used some hand-wavy logic and tried to make explicit miracles evidence for God but, for people who think like you and I, this does not suffice and we are unlikely to see 100% conclusive proof. I see no need to go further into it than that.

Why did Christ come when he did: This is a good question and I have to admit that I am not a purveyor of all truth and so I can't say that I know the answer. Personally the flexibility of time, as proven by General Relativity has never made the timing issue a biggie for me. Also, the tragedies of this world are certainly that; tragic. However, if Christ's coming is true then the pains of this world must pale in comparison. This is not to say the pain people faced was irrelevant but that there is no doubt more at stake than I currently understand. You've piqued my interest though, I shall investigate this further. I think its a little unfair to refer to it as "dumb credulity". My faith in Christ comes from the best objective reasoning I can muster, which, I hope you can see, is not without rigour. I do not blindly accept that God showed up late. I'm interested in an answer, and, thanks to your suggestion, I shall pursue one.

"the man-made character of religion persists in a terrifying shape in our own time". I agree with this and think it sucks. However, religion has simply been the most powerful tool at humanity's disposal. Humans will wield the most powerful tool they can to get what they selfishly want, this has historically been religion. If there was no religion we would be wielding something else. Just consider Soviet Russia or Maoist China as an example. Humans are screwed up and we have used religion to express our screwed up-ness. Agreed. But just because people get killed in car accidents doesn't make cars the source of all horror on our roads, it is the feeble drivers behind the cars that are the problem.

Would love to take this conversation elsewhere and keep it going. Really appreciate your thoughtfulness and the challenges you are presenting to me, its healthy.