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by nanoscopic 4252 days ago
That was a very long and detailed explanation of the sides of the argument.

It misses one huge thing: Consistency.

The elephant in the room is that most people who dislike systemd simply dislike it because they learned and used init.d scripts, runlevels, and chkconfig, and that is the extent of their understanding.

The main hatred for systemd is coming from people simply being resistant to change. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I like systemd for it's technical merits. I personally would prefer to use a distribution like CentOS in a mode where there is no systemd, simply because I like simplicity and systemd is more confusing to me.

What I foresee happening: people who don't like systemd are going to go try other distributions that don't use it, and may abandon the ones that do because it is too much trouble to run them without it.

The statement that it will lead to divide between graphical linux users and minimalists is likely very true. Runlevels may be simplistic and outdated, but they are easy to remember.

3 comments

No, I specifically addressed this:

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"The rather huge scope and opinionated nature of systemd leads to people yearning for the days of sysvinit. A lot of this is ignorance about good design principles, but a good part may also be motivated from an inability to properly convey desires of simple and transparent systems. In this way, proponents and opponents get caught in feedback loops of incessantly going nowhere with flame wars over one initd implementation (that happened to be dominant), completely ignoring all the previous research on improving init, as it all gets left to bite the dust. Even further, most people fail to differentiate init from rc scripts, and sort of hold sysvinit to be equivalent to the shoddy initscripts that distros have written, and all the hacks they bolted on top like LSB headers and startpar(2). This is a huge misunderstanding that leads to a lot of wasted energy."

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This isn't about people "hating change". It looks like it, because a lot of people who defend sysvinit aren't really doing that as much as they are defending minimal and transparent systems. In fact, there's way too many people who don't understand "init". Init is the first userspace process that is started. That's it. Init doesn't mean "manages services", "manages processes" or anything like that. Those are separate concepts. The sooner we realize this, the sooner we can have some more innovative architectures for managing services, as we're still trapped in this mental cage.

Moreover, it's not just systemd haters who are resistant to change. A lot of systemd lovers are, as well. In fact, the reason we didn't fix the problem earlier and stuck with SysV for so long was precisely because people didn't care about init, and didn't want to change their flawed ways. Well, at least in the Linux communities. Many of the people who resisted change when presented with non-SysV approaches back in the day are the same who now support systemd and lament on how much "systemd haters don't like change".

systemd, of course, went significantly beyond service management, and thus had a much bigger impact than previous designs which were rather focused on one problem domain. Thus, systemd simply became far more prominent (and controversial) than anything else because of its huge ambitions.

Most people don't know much about any of the details. They have simply done things one way for a long time and now it is changing. You haven't addressed that besides accusing those people of being "ignorant about good design principles" and "having huge misunderstandings that leads to a lot of wasted energy."

From the perspective of the average linux user ( one that knows little to nothing about linux internals ) the entire discussion is the real waste of energy.

The people who know a ton are a different category altogether; you have addressed those.

The category of people you are ignoring is those who did it one way now they are suddenly "forced" to change.

I feel the same way about firewalld as I do about systemd. Iptables was confusing, but I used it till I was able to do what I needed. Now all of that knowledge is useless because I have to use a different system to stay with the rest of the group.

Is systemd better? Sure. Is firewalld better? Dunno; I think so. Am I ignorant and clueless and misunderstanding everything? No... I just have a different perspective than all of the people fighting about this. All I want is to continue my simple life. Learning new stuff is a drag if it worked fine before. ( I'm aware of how sucky 'fine' is... )

This is not an argument; it's just a statement of how I and a lot of people feel. We used to have a normal car; now the steering wheel is gone and replaced by a grid of 20 buttons that control an automated robot who steers for us. We were used to the wheel. We ask for the wheel back and we are told we are clueless and ignorant and should use the buttons.

> From the perspective of the average linux user ( one that knows little to nothing about linux internals ) the entire discussion is the real waste of energy.

If all distros adopt "systemd/linux", a future plan for systemd according to lead developers, what happens if systemd collapses? It would take GNU/Linux with it. Remember how pulseaudio adoption by ubuntu drove users away. I want others to have access to UNIX, the best OS in the world, just like I had the opportunity.

> I want others to have access to UNIX, the best OS in the world, just like I had the opportunity.

Thankfully, there are several alternative free unix-like operating systems these days. Are they are popular as Linux? Do they have as much big business/corp backing as Linux? No and No. However, if Linux implodes there are great alternatives these days. I personally use and quite enjoy FreeBSD. ymmv.

* Linux (topic of discussion) * BSD derivatives: * FreeBSD / NetBSD / OpenBSD / DragonFlyBSD * Illumos (opensolaris) derivatives * SmartOS / OmniOS / OpenIndiana * Minix * more[1]

[1]: [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_operating_systems#Unix...

I agree completely, those operating systems are great, as good or better than GNU/Linux. But with that phrase I was thinking people without prior experience, like Windows users, FreeBSD install is fairly involved for them, there's PC-BSD, but it seems to me, distros like Mint are easier for beginners and useful as a stepping stone to those OSs.
I think Linux has an edge in driver support, and corp vendors -- especially for gaming with things like Steam.

I really like some of the things the pc-bsd folks are doing though. Lumina seems to be coming along nicely.

You think the systemd debate is bad? The same people who made systemd intend to totally change the way the entire system works, way past just services.

See: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linu...

Kiss goodbye to what you knew; it may be going the way of the dodo.

Remember what happened to ReiserFS? Despite what you are saying being FUD it's not entirely unreasonable.

> You think the systemd debate is bad?

I think the debate is good and necessary, I don't like any software imposed without a debate.

Yes, I know, I was referencing partly that. Again, my position may be shocking to you: 1) I like change 2) I use a dozen init systems (!), each for a different situation, and I'm interested in keeping it that way.

You'll also be surprised to know that I use varios OSs! Never used ReiserFS, though.

That is a rather broad estimation of all those who dislike systemd.

While there are people who most likely dislike systemd because they are resistant to change, they don't constitute everyone with objections. I for one dislike systemd, not because I am resistant to change, but on a purely technical basis (which I won't discuss as it has already been reiterated ad nauseam).

I must also add that I dislike sysv and like that the community is discussing alternatives; but the race to systemd, with some serious technical failings which have not been addressed, scares me.

I don't hate change. I just want to be able to carry on using FreeBSD (for reasons that, believe it or not, are primarily technical), and Pottering seems to think that means I shouldn't be allowed use Gnome.