[cruisername]

> [that it's naive to say that science doesn't turn on belief] depends entirely on what we mean when we say "science".

Or it depends on what we mean when we say believe. The weight lying on "science" does form a conceptual framework that completely ignores the notion of something beyond our reach, although it inarguably is the driving force behind science.

> In religion, something is true until evidence proves it false. In science, something is false until evidence proves it true -- exactly the opposite.

alright, but the word of god himself isn't evidence enough? j/k :)

> In religion, something is true until evidence proves it false. In science, something is false until evidence proves it true -- exactly the opposite.

Why do those have to opposite, can't they be reconciled into one, using some form of ternary logic? Edit: I mean, some things in life are unknown until proven true or false and then theres all kinds of methods to counter the fact.

[lutusp]

> The weight lying on "science" does form a conceptual framework that completely ignores the notion of something beyond our reach, although it inarguably is the driving force behind science.

Yes, but an idea doesn't become a matter of interest to science until it comes within our reach, in the sense of being observable in a way that forces different, similarly equipped observers to the same conclusion (the scientific meaning of "objective").

> Why do those have to opposite, can't they be reconciled into one, using some form of ternary logic?

Yes, an interesting question, but not really about science. Science concerns itself only with things that can be reduced to empirical observation, not belief.

> I mean, some things in life are unknown until proven true or false ...

That's true, but the basic scientific precept is the null hypothesis, the idea that things without evidence are assumed to be false. This is a great time-saver compared to granting credence to ideas without evidence, or assuming that something might be true until proven false (the unscientific outlook).

[cruisername]

I agree with your co-commentator, everything is subjective and we just take some things for granted so much that we take them as truth.

Seems i was wrong calling it inarguable, in fact i like to argue back and forth a lot.

> observable in a way that forces different, similarly equipped observers to the same conclusion (the scientific meaning of "objective").

no, that's still subjectivity, you just shifted the goal post. That kind of subjectivity might be your threshold for accepting some cognition as close enough to your supposition of objectivity, but it still requires trust on an individual level.

> an interesting question, but not really about science. Science concerns itself only with things that can be reduced to empirical observation, not belief.

Specifically by including subjectivity through empiricism, you in fact beget belief. I.e. measurements have an inherit uncertainty and you do what you can to reduce it.

> but the basic scientific precept is the null hypothesis, the idea that things without evidence are assumed to be false

You seem to fall for the fallacy of negated implication. My best guess is, the Null Hypothesis really states that evidence implies reality.

Or as my teacher put it, just because it didn't rain, the street doesn't have to be dry. It's hard to explain and I'm tired, sorry. I often fall for it, too.

[lutusp]

> ... no, that's still subjectivity, you just shifted the goal post. That kind of subjectivity might be your threshold for accepting some cognition as close enough to your supposition of objectivity, but it still requires trust on an individual level.

You're making the post-modern argument. Are you aware of this? Everything is subjective, there are no objective shared truths, it's all a matter of opinion. But you haven't thought this viewpoint through to its logical conclusion, which is that, if it's true, then it applies first to the argument itself, fatally undermining it.

[cruisername]

I am aware of that, but I didn't think it through far enough to conclude that it's really undermined. I dunno, say, It only makes predictions about subjects, no the bigger picture, where a god-device would come in. It doesn't really explain away your stand point either. Good talk :)

[TeMPOraL]

> Why do those have to opposite, can't they be reconciled into one, using some form of ternary logic? Edit: I mean, some things in life are unknown until proven true or false and then theres all kinds of methods to counter the fact.

You reconcile them using Bayesian probability. There is no "proven to be true", there is no "proven to be false", there is only probability that flows between different models based on the evidence we discover.

"In science, something is false until evidence proves it true" actually means that any random hypothesis you come up with has an equivalent probability to be right to any other random hypothesis - which is infinitesimal, because possible hypothesis space is huge. Then, as evidence comes knocking, you update those probabilities, and some hypotheses become more probable (i.e. more likely a good models of reality), while other become too improbable to care about.