[aianus]

> Why use Bitcoin? What is the value proposition for consumers apart from sending money to friends?

- Buying things that people would be unwilling to sell to you with existing payment methods due to fraud risks. One legal example: iPhone purchases shipped to Nigeria.

- Buying things electronically where the existing payment methods are too slow or expensive. For example, funding a stock trading account in seconds to an hour instead of 1-2 days or funding an online gambling account (legal for most non-US residents but slow and expensive with credit cards).

- Buying an expensive item from a trusted merchant at a discount commensurate with the reduced transaction cost and zero chargeback risk.

- Paying for contractors or crowd-sourcing efforts in any country in the world with ease.

Use your imagination.

[jarek]

That's a nice list of things most consumers won't be doing. That's not to say there's no value for people who do need it, but it does not suggest Bitcoin will become hugely valuable like Visa.

> - Buying things that people would be unwilling to sell to you with existing payment methods due to fraud risks. One legal example: iPhone purchases shipped to Nigeria.

Small global market share for legal uses.

> - Buying things electronically where the existing payment methods are too slow or expensive. For example, funding a stock trading account in seconds to an hour instead of 1-2 days or funding an online gambling account (legal for most non-US residents but slow and expensive with credit cards).

Most non-US residents can do bank transfers as fast as Bitcoin or will be able to Real Soon Now.

> - Buying an expensive item from a trusted merchant at a discount commensurate with the reduced transaction cost and zero chargeback risk.

So like 5%? Fringe, people who really care about a discount will buy something cheaper or haggle.

> - Paying for contractors or crowd-sourcing efforts in any country in the world with ease.

Fringe for consumer market share.

[aianus]

> Small global market share for legal uses.

How do you know? It's currently small because it's currently impossible.

> Most non-US residents can do bank transfers as fast as Bitcoin or will be able to Real Soon Now.

I disagree, most non-US residents in the world don't even have bank accounts. Not to mention, the US and Canada are a huge market with a terrible banking system that refuses to modernize.

> So like 5%?

5% is the entire federal VAT in Canada. Would you really say no to saving $100 when buying a new MacBook? Would you just not bother claiming VAT-exempt status for your business because it's a measly 5%?

A fringe here and a fringe there and pretty soon you have a whole robe.

[jarek]

> How do you know? It's currently small because it's currently impossible.

I think the reason for my belief about iPhones-in-Nigeria being a small market is self-evident. As for other examples: people tend to buy things locally because local businesses are generally good at recognizing local demand, organizing import if necessary, and reaping the benefits of scale (shipping a container of phones). That this arrangement allows for localization of the product which further increases local demand is just icing on the cake.

> I disagree, most non-US residents in the world don't even have bank accounts.

Yes, but they are getting bank or quasibank accounts faster than they are getting Bitcoin wallets.

> Would you really say no to saving $100 when buying a new MacBook?

No - but as a price-sensitive customer I would buy a couple-months-old, gently-used Macbook and save $200 or more. As a price-sensitive business I would buy a Dell.

> A fringe here and a fringe there and pretty soon you have a whole robe.

Sure. But a robe still much smaller than a mainstream provider like Visa.

[aianus]

> No - but as a price-sensitive customer I would buy a couple-months-old, gently-used Macbook and save $200 or more. As a price-sensitive business I would buy a Dell.

Given the number of successful 1-2% cash-back credit cards, it would seem that even regular consumers care about saving tiny fractions on their spending.

[jarek]

Yes but putting $1000+ on a 1% cashback card every month adds up a lot faster than 5% on a once-every-two-years $2000 purchase.

[jarek]

To add: it's also a lot easier to just tap the 1% card as you would normally. There's no change to what people do normally except you get free money (not strictly, but close enough for most people).

It requires a lot more commitment to decide if the transaction is big enough to warrant a no-chargeback discount and if you trust the retailer. Some people would definitely do it if given the chance but it in no way compares to using a cashback Mastercard to buy your lunch.

[drcross]

Fiat currency is printed on the whim of governments, effectively defrauding the citizens of every country in the world through value dilution. Bitcoin is a technological innovation which allows for a constant and known rate of currency generation. I'd prefer to intrust my pension to maths than to a civil servant with an economics degree. This aspect shouldn't be overlooked or taken lighty because it disrupts the power, ergo the control that governments can wield over their citizens.

[jarek]

> Fiat currency is printed on the whim of governments, effectively defrauding the citizens of every country in the world through value dilution. Bitcoin is a technological innovation which allows for a constant and known rate of currency generation. I'd prefer to intrust my pension to maths than to a civil servant with an economics degree. This aspect shouldn't be overlooked or taken lighty because it disrupts the power, ergo the control that governments can wield over their citizens.

Yawn. If people as a whole cared about 1% of what you just said there'd be revolutions in every country yesterday.

Money is inherently a social thing. You provide goods or services today to earn a social credit and be able to acquire goods and services after you retire. Your pension is useless without an economy made up of ordinary people who don't care about maths and cryptography but feel they owe you something. They only care about power governments can wield over citizens when things go really wrong. And when things go really wrong you can't buy potatoes with a hard drive.

[aianus]

There are numerous examples in history (and today!) of governments wiping out their citizens' savings through hyperinflation, restricting their access to foreign currencies, etc. This is not just an ideological libertarian conspiracy theory.

It is a virtue of Bitcoin that it helps subvert the power of those corrupt governments over the economy in much the same way TOR and proxies help to subvert their power over free speech.

[XorNot]

>I disagree, most non-US residents in the world don't even have bank accounts. Not to mention, the US and Canada are a huge market with a terrible banking system that refuses to modernize.

Didn't Nigeria, specifically, just issue national ID cards which are implicitly tied to being Mastercard direct debit cards as well?

[aianus]

I wonder how many merchants are able to accept Mastercard in Nigeria. More likely people are using them simply to deposit or withdraw cash. Remember, before square and stripe it was an expensive bureaucratic nightmare to accept payment cards even in Canada or the US.

[tacotime]

> A fringe here and a fringe there and pretty soon you have a whole robe.

I love you

[baddox]

Firstly, I disagree with the confidence with which you declare all of these usages to be fringe.

Secondly, even if they are fringe, that's not a reason against using or being excited about Bitcoin.

[zanny]

Besides this, in person payments are much easier with a bitcoin app scanning a barcode from a screen that embeds the price and transaction info than swiping a card and entering numbers you need to remember, and one less thing to carry around.