[JonnieCache]

>In actuality, the complexity that surrounds DNS providers, server apps (or whatever you call filezilla etc), server providers (here i mean heroku, AWS, Cloudflare etc), those weird githubs and repos that people chat about etc etc, is way more deterring than actually learning what a "class" is.

That stuff is 80% of practical software engineering. The other 20% is communicating with other people.

If you want to be good at your job, you've got to put in the hours to learn the stuff that isn't in the books. The same as any other skilled career. If you want to worry about the niceties of programming languages all day, go into academia.

[MrJagil]

Exactly! If 80% of practical software engineering is what i described above, then how come no one is teaching it!

Also, I feel we are talking about students quite a few steps below the stage where engineer vs. academia discussions become relevant.

[JonnieCache]

There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things.

The comment about academia was a bit silly, true. I was trying to say that it's the only place where you can have the luxury of thinking about "pure" programming as a primary concern.

[zo1]

"There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things."

This! In my team, everyone comes to me for help with their problems. Generally, 75% of the time, I know the answer (because I've come across it before). And the other 25%, I solve their novel problem because I ask the right questions, and use basic problem-solving and problem-narrowing steps.

It really isn't rocket-science, it's just analytical, or problem-solving ability. I suppose it has many names. After burning much over other peoples' problems, I eventually resorted to guiding them towards the right direction. Asking them what they think is the problem, getting them to tell me their thought-processes. It's helped quite a bit...

[JoeAltmaier]

Bootcamp can help folks learn to use their skill, to focus on the things that matter. As my friend Tom often says when I want to reinvent the wheel, "Joe, we CAN do anything. What SHOULD we do?" That's definitely something a bootcamp can help with.

[MrJagil]

> There's no decent way (IMO) to learn generic problem solving skills other than solving a lot of problems for yourself. That's what worries me about these bootcamp things.

Hm, though I see your point, and agree that "googling" is an actual skill you can acquire and improve by yourself, I feel it's not that different from any other skill, generic or not. I mean, before structure dawned upon playing piano or coding, to learn, the task was problem solving.

To me, there's no essential difference between "this note sounds wrong, why is that, let me try another one" to "how do I get my damn website online". If one beginner's learning process can have structure, why not the other's.

[nawitus]

But if you could start with actually writing stuff instead of dealing with "software bureaucracy" you might be a lot more motivated to learn programming.

[collyw]

The problem is you learn something well, then all the hipsters tell you that it needs to be done in Mongo / Node / / whatever the latest fad is.